the second hand game debate Page 2

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  • mal 20 Mar 2013 23:41:32 22,341 posts
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    Jazzy_Geoff wrote:
    mal wrote:
    Jazzy_Geoff wrote:
    Finally the video game business in not analogous to cars, plates, books or anything else.
    Yes it is. Books are sold in shops on the high street. I can buy them online. I can rent them (from my library). They're even electronic media these days, as e-books. Granted, they're not interactive as such, unless you include those old choose-your-own-adventure books. Publishers publish books, and authors develop them. Seems a pretty good analogy to me, no?
    Because books are significantly cheaper. Most people wouldn't bother waiting around for a used copy of a book they wanted, they'd just buy it for eight quid or whatever, who cares? How many second hand book shops do you see these days?
    Well okay, mass market books are cheaper than mass market games. But mass market cars are more expensive, and plates somewhere between games and books in the main. And most people wait around for a car they want to become available used, because they're so expensive. Surely its a continuum, where people are more enticed by second hand items the more expensive the original is.

    FWIW there are two second hand bookstores between me and the local station, and I think three charity shops which stock books. Only one new bookstore, two if you count the Smiths in the station.

    Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!

  • mal 20 Mar 2013 23:43:58 22,341 posts
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    Jazzy_Geoff wrote:
    mal wrote:
    Jazzy_Geoff wrote:
    Cappy wrote:
    I wouldn't want to go back to the way things were before used games were available on the high streets, it was absolutely horrible..
    When was this?
    When W H Smith and Boots sold games and computers.

    I can remember trading in NES games, was it before then?
    Yes. NES launched in the UK in '87, IIRC, and by then Boots had definitely stopped selling games, and I think Smiths had too. We had an independent game shop in the town centre by then, and game sales were restricted to there, Dixons and Woolies.

    Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!

  • RobTheBuilder 20 Mar 2013 23:45:24 6,521 posts
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    @Rodney

    Let's look at it with a rough calculation. I've got 100 to spend on games.

    I can either:


    Buy 2 full price new games at 35 each, and one recently released game at 30.
    Total new game sales: 100

    or

    Buy two full price games at 35, and two second hand games at 15 each.
    I then trade in the new games for half their value, and the used for 2/3rds value.

    That gives me 60, which buys a new game for 35 and a recent game for 25.

    Total new games sales: 130 + Total used game sales 30




    It's a simplification, but without the lure of trade-in I have less money to spend. In addition, the lack of trade-ins will put some people off buying the machine in the first place, lowering the market size.
  • Rodney 20 Mar 2013 23:51:01 1,851 posts
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    That's just you but how representative are you? What if for every consumer like there are ten others who churn though second hand games exclusively. Im not saying this is the case but without the data I don't know.
  • Cappy 20 Mar 2013 23:53:54 11,834 posts
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    Rodney wrote:
    What was the figure for Dead Space, 8 unique online players for every unit of the game sold? Something like that.
    Sounds like a number plucked from thin air, the sort of thing you'd say to justify Project $10. Dead Space had no online component of any sort, what exactly would EA be tracking? Dead Space 2 locked used copies out of online content, so thats not a useful yardstick either.

    This industry has a long tradition of outrageous lying unfortunately, from absurdly inflated losses from piracy which amount to thinking of a high number to taking wild guesses at how many owners one copy of a game might have had.
  • Rodney 20 Mar 2013 23:54:05 1,851 posts
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    RobTheBuilder wrote:
    @Rodney I've seen internal sales figures from a major gaming retailer that show how trade-ins affect new game purchases. There's no coincidence that new game sales go up as trade-ins go up.
    I missed this post before. In that case I might be wrong.
  • RobTheBuilder 20 Mar 2013 23:54:51 6,521 posts
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    @Rodney Well most gamers who play lots of titles tend to know that newish used games aren't much cheaper. So I imagine they trade-in more and buy more.

    Those who buy exclusively buy older cheaper used games are those with very limited cash who wouldn't buy more than a couple of new games a year regardless.

    My understanding from the data I saw was that trade-ins drive new purchases. They also make most of the retailers profit. I've said before that without used games I can't see GAME group surviving long. That would reduce competition and would likely result in prices drifting up a little.
  • Mr-Brett 20 Mar 2013 23:55:16 12,723 posts
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    In this hypothetical and totally not happening future where second hand is blocked in the next gen. I doubt that any number of people worth mentioning will be put off new consoles all together, yes they will whine to high heaven but most of those complaining will still buy new consoles but perhaps buy less games.

    Portable view - Never forget.

  • Rodney 20 Mar 2013 23:56:44 1,851 posts
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    Cappy wrote:
    Rodney wrote:
    What was the figure for Dead Space, 8 unique online players for every unit of the game sold? Something like that.
    Sounds like a number plucked from thin air, the sort of thing you'd say to justify Project $10. Dead Space had no online component of any sort, what exactly would EA be tracking? Dead Space 2 locked used copies out of online content, so thats not a useful yardstick either.

    This industry has a long tradition of outrageous lying unfortunately, from absurdly inflated losses from piracy which amount to thinking of a high number to taking wild guesses at how many owners one copy of a game might have had.
    I wouldn't put that pas EA but I think they can see how many unique players of the who play while logged into PSN XBL. dont developers collect lots of data like this though evrn from single player games (% of players who complete campaing etc)
  • RobTheBuilder 20 Mar 2013 23:59:32 6,521 posts
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    @Mr-Brett Gamers yes. But it will put off parents who find out that if their fussy kid doesn't like the 40 game they just bought he is stuck with it forever.

    If PS4 doesn't lock and Xbox does, it will just mean PS4 dominates sales.
  • Rodney 20 Mar 2013 23:59:42 1,851 posts
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    RobTheBuilder wrote:
    @Rodney Well most gamers who play lots of titles tend to know that newish used games aren't much cheaper. So I imagine they trade-in more and buy more.

    Those who buy exclusively buy older cheaper used games are those with very limited cash who wouldn't buy more than a couple of new games a year regardless.

    My understanding from the data I saw was that trade-ins drive new purchases. They also make most of the retailers profit. I've said before that without used games I can't see GAME group surviving long. That would reduce competition and would likely result in prices drifting up a little.
    Good point. I dont think high street retail would last long without the second hand market.
  • ecureuil 21 Mar 2013 00:01:54 76,535 posts
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    40 is too steep for many people, if they try and push it up then people will vote with their wallets. Prices between companies will become more competitive, such as we're seeing with Steam and other digital services at the moment. The competition will keep prices down. If Microsoft start ripping people off then I'm sure Sony will offer some good prices. The 360 recently had a sale where they had games on offer for 2.50, which was probably part research for a future digital economy.
  • Mr-Brett 21 Mar 2013 00:02:18 12,723 posts
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    @RobTheBuilder I think you overestimate the parenting skills of the majority of people :)

    Portable view - Never forget.

  • Jazzy_Geoff 21 Mar 2013 00:04:06 7,767 posts
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    Probably not but it's an anachronism anyway. In ten years time the high street game shop will be dea with or without second hand games.
  • RobTheBuilder 21 Mar 2013 00:04:38 6,521 posts
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    @Mr-Brett Well partly. But parents spread these stories quick. If mumsnet posted saying "Don't buy the new Xbox for your kids as they can't trade-in games. Get the PS4 instead."

    Boom.
  • Cappy 21 Mar 2013 00:04:49 11,834 posts
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    Rodney wrote:
    I wouldn't put that pas EA but I think they can see how many unique players of the who play while logged into PSN XBL. dont developers collect lots of data like this though evrn from single player games (% of players who complete campaing etc)
    Considering when Dead Space came out, it's likely less than half the consoles on which Dead Space was being played were online.

    I don't believe there is any method of tracking unique users against copies of Dead Space, lots of people don't even have a fixed IP.

    100% Bullshit is the explanation that fits.

    Edited by Cappy at 00:06:23 21-03-2013
  • Deleted user 21 March 2013 00:05:24
    And also, I don't have any figures to quote as usual I just speak from my own experience of the way I use my Xbox, but less or no used games means I buy less which means I'm on my Xbox less.

    This means I don't see the dash as much or will have the need to frequent sites such as this as much. Conversely this means of a higher chance I'll miss out on deals and impulse buys, of which recently there have been quite a few. Think I've watched four films on Xbox movies or whatever it's called plus bought five games in the GoD sale plus some random dlc stuff for battlefield when I'm on randomly playing some second hand game or whatever.

    So, my kind of point which isn't much of a point is because of my increased game library due to second hand games I'm exposed to the console and all the online stuff and offers and impulse shit that entails, meaning not only does it increase my spend, it increases my awareness of what I can buy and my chances of buying it.

    Granted I'm probably not the average user but you see what I mean? I'm not sure I do any more mind you... What was I saying?
  • Mr-Brett 21 Mar 2013 00:30:54 12,723 posts
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    Jazzy_Geoff wrote:
    Probably not but it's an anachronism anyway. In ten years time the high street game shop will be dea with or without second hand games.
    Yes it's going to happen but not by blocking used sales, that could be a PR disaster and might upset some still powerful figures in the industry.

    The next generation will transition to downloads and with it will just remove the disc and thus the second hand problem out of the equation.

    Portable view - Never forget.

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