Sexism and Women in Video Games: Anita Sarkeesian goes to bat for girls Page 3

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  • B0rked_Gamer 8 Mar 2013 09:38:38 2,481 posts
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    thedaveeyres wrote:
    B0rked_Gamer wrote:

    Feminism has been hijacked by radicals is what I said. Even a pea-brain with a months investigative research could see that.
    Listen to yourself. Just listen.
    Getting passive-aggressive? You're not a feminist are you? :D
  • Tonka 8 Mar 2013 09:38:57 20,011 posts
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    Stuz359 wrote:
    The problem for me is a lack of a balanced argument. She has clearly focused only on games which support her argument whilst ignoring those that don't..
    It's a series on tropes in videogames, so of course she will focus on tropes in videogames. It's not a general "All women in videogames"

    And even if it were you would find that for the most part women are portrayed using tropes.

    If you can read this you really need to fiddle with your forum settings.

  • CosmicFuzz 8 Mar 2013 09:39:04 23,188 posts
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    Here's a question: in action films/games where people say there is a 'strong female role' is it perhaps not truer to say the female role is simply more masculine?

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  • Tonka 8 Mar 2013 09:44:37 20,011 posts
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    I think that people who are getting upset over this video would feel a lot better if they saw her takes on LEGO or the ones about women in films. I think she is very fair in her criticism.

    More observations than criticism actually.

    If you can read this you really need to fiddle with your forum settings.

  • nickthegun 8 Mar 2013 09:47:49 58,782 posts
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    I cant see how anyone would have an issue with it as its all patently obvious.

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  • thedaveeyres 8 Mar 2013 09:48:12 10,686 posts
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    B0rked_Gamer wrote:
    thedaveeyres wrote:
    B0rked_Gamer wrote:

    Feminism has been hijacked by radicals is what I said. Even a pea-brain with a months investigative research could see that.
    Listen to yourself. Just listen.
    Getting passive-aggressive? You're not a feminist are you? :D
    Wow. I'm merely pointing out how utterly ridiculous you're being. I'd save the tin foil twattery for /r/mensrights where it'll be harrumphed by your peers.

    ...and I'm not being passive-aggressive, I'm being aggressive. :-)

    Edited by thedaveeyres at 09:55:49 08-03-2013

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  • B0rked_Gamer 8 Mar 2013 10:02:21 2,481 posts
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    thedaveeyres wrote:
    B0rked_Gamer wrote:
    thedaveeyres wrote:
    B0rked_Gamer wrote:

    Feminism has been hijacked by radicals is what I said. Even a pea-brain with a months investigative research could see that.
    Listen to yourself. Just listen.
    Getting passive-aggressive? You're not a feminist are you? :D
    Wow. I'm merely pointing out how utterly ridiculous you're being. I'd save the tin foil twattery for /r/mensrights where it'll be harrumphed by your peers.

    ...and I'm not being passive-aggressive, I'm being aggressive. :-)
    Woah let me stop you right there. I was being aggressive and you were being passive and then you got narky. ;)
  • thedaveeyres 8 Mar 2013 10:06:22 10,686 posts
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    There you go, gender stereotypes in action. Except I'm also a man. BOOM! ;)

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  • JinTypeNoir 8 Mar 2013 10:10:01 4,365 posts
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    Yeah, yeah, a lot of societies are pretty screwy in the type of roles they express as positive, but come on now, let's not forget that as tough as life can be for everyone, the point is, we have a ways to go before women are able to be represented fairly in all portions of society and that's what we should be focusing on.

    Throwing it back to "B-b-but there are bad representations of men too!" is not helpful at all. No shit, thanks for unraveling the mysteries of the universe, Dr. Who.


    Tonka wrote:
    I think that people who are getting upset over this video would feel a lot better if they saw her takes on LEGO or the ones about women in films. I think she is very fair in her criticism.

    More observations than criticism actually.
    More observations yeah. I watched the LEGO one and again, while she tries to keep balanced and fair, I think she really needs to sit down and think about what she's saying. For instance, in the LEGO video, she talks about how it's not exactly natural for women to like traditionally female activities. She does cite the differing color norms as backup for this. However, this is quite a can of worms that hundreds of thousands of professionals all over the world are trying to unravel and have been for decades. To what extent its natural, what the hell "natural" is for humans in the first place, how much of it impressed upon by society and how much of it is desirable, all of these are way too complicated for the simple equations she reduces them into. For all we know, there may be something biological about gender tendencies in women and men.

    It muddles her perfectly reasonable point that LEGO shouldn't limit marketing their activities to women. That's why I criticize her at least. Not because I don't see value in what she's trying to do, but because unless she gets more convincing, her impact will be limited.

    Edited by JinTypeNoir at 10:11:01 08-03-2013
  • CosmicFuzz 8 Mar 2013 10:16:48 23,188 posts
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    JTN, you've skipped over most of the discussion in your post there.

    If action games need a physical role for the main character, and most games are action, then of course there is going to be more strong male roles. Or at least masculine roles, so long as we're assuming that running and gunning and saving the day are masculine roles.

    There's just not the same diversity in games as there is in books and film. Games are always going to lean towards action, at least in the ones with a storyline. It's not about equality. Most games = action = masculine lead roles.

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  • CosmicFuzz 8 Mar 2013 10:17:49 23,188 posts
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    RPGs are an example of strong storyline games with strong female roles actually when I think about it.

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  • Widge Moderator 8 Mar 2013 10:18:44 13,259 posts
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    The only distinct female leads I can think about, that fall outside of the sextoy/please save me/sassy lady tropes, are GlaDOS and FemShep. The latter comes across as one of the best female leads in a game as she delivers a script that was meant for a man.

    I'd like to see a game dev do that on purpose, get their scriptwriters to write something and then swap the sex on it at the end.

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  • B0rked_Gamer 8 Mar 2013 10:20:39 2,481 posts
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    sigh

    I'll watch the bloody video but if it bangs on about gender and implies we should all live in a androgynous utopia I'll punch thedaveeyres.

    edit

    Okay the presentation uses a pink and blue colour scheme and the presenter is also wearing a pink and blue shirt because you know boys wear blue and girls wear pink but you know we're all, like, totally the same really so lets go with pink and blue.

    /twitches

    /goes back to watching

    Edited by B0rked_Gamer at 10:27:54 08-03-2013

    edit 2

    Oookay stopped watching at 11m33s because the presenter just couldn't resist dropping in a quote on patriarchy. FUCK. YOU.

    /punches thedaveeyres

    Edited by B0rked_Gamer at 10:47:26 08-03-2013

    edit 2.1

    Oh and comments disabled on video! I hate that shit.

    Edited by B0rked_Gamer at 10:55:19 08-03-2013
  • CosmicFuzz 8 Mar 2013 10:21:51 23,188 posts
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    But surely that just puts a female in a strong masculine role? It's not the same as crafting a game around the fact she's a woman. Unless the argument is people just want more female action heroes?

    Edit: @wedge

    Edited by CosmicFuzz at 10:22:30 08-03-2013

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  • GuiltySpark 8 Mar 2013 10:25:54 6,320 posts
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    The only reason I spoke about representation of males is because it was a massively obvious thing in a video that she analysed, and didn't draw attention to, where she should have.

    Get bent.

  • GuiltySpark 8 Mar 2013 10:29:33 6,320 posts
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    CosmicFuzz wrote:
    But surely that just puts a female in a strong masculine role? It's not the same as crafting a game around the fact she's a woman. Unless the argument is people just want more female action heroes?

    Edit: @wedge
    This only really works if there is a reality of what a woman is, and there isn't, just shit that society has made up (a social construct, if I remember college correctly). If you put a woman in an action film, and she is the protagonist, then she'll need to be strong and aggressive, because she'd just die else.

    I'm not disagreeing with you (you seem spot on with what you've said in this thread), just clarifying : )

    Get bent.

  • DFawkes 8 Mar 2013 10:30:27 22,592 posts
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    GlaDOS is a bound, upside down slave girl.

    GlaDOS. No idea if that even fits into this discussion. She's a genderless robot really. Gets killed by a woman though.

    Edited by DFawkes at 10:34:28 08-03-2013

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  • nickthegun 8 Mar 2013 10:32:47 58,782 posts
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    Sigh... everyone always forgets Chell...

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  • Vinicity 8 Mar 2013 10:48:17 200 posts
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    Widge wrote:
    The only distinct female leads I can think about, that fall outside of the sextoy/please save me/sassy lady tropes, are GlaDOS and FemShep.
    Surely there are lots more. How about Jade from Beyond Good & Evil, April and Ze from Dreamfall, Madison Paige from Heavy Rain, Elena Fischer from Uncharted, and Chell from Portal?

    Arguably also Yuna from FFX, Zelda from Ocarina of Time, Samus from Metroid, The Boss from MGS3, Alyx Vance from Half-Life, Faith from Mirror's Edge...



    The latter comes across as one of the best female leads in a game as she delivers a script that was meant for a man.
    Really? Surely BioWare were aware that the option of playing as a female would be included when the script was written? Or do you have evidence to the contrary?

    To me it seems as if the script is carefully written to work for both genders...

    Edited by Vinicity at 10:48:36 08-03-2013

    Edited by Vinicity at 10:54:01 08-03-2013
  • CosmicFuzz 8 Mar 2013 10:55:15 23,188 posts
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    GuiltySpark wrote:
    CosmicFuzz wrote:
    But surely that just puts a female in a strong masculine role? It's not the same as crafting a game around the fact she's a woman. Unless the argument is people just want more female action heroes?

    Edit: @wedge
    This only really works if there is a reality of what a woman is, and there isn't, just shit that society has made up (a social construct, if I remember college correctly). If you put a woman in an action film, and she is the protagonist, then she'll need to be strong and aggressive, because she'd just die else.

    I'm not disagreeing with you (you seem spot on with what you've said in this thread), just clarifying : )
    No I completely agree. I'm not sure what that game would be either!

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  • ecureuil 8 Mar 2013 14:21:54 76,495 posts
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    thedaveeyres wrote:
    B0rked_Gamer wrote:
    thedaveeyres wrote:
    B0rked_Gamer wrote:

    Feminism has been hijacked by radicals is what I said. Even a pea-brain with a months investigative research could see that.
    Listen to yourself. Just listen.
    Getting passive-aggressive? You're not a feminist are you? :D
    Wow. I'm merely pointing out how utterly ridiculous you're being. I'd save the tin foil twattery for /r/mensrights where it'll be harrumphed by your peers.

    ...and I'm not being passive-aggressive, I'm being aggressive. :-)
    I just gave the thread on r/mensrights a good read through, and it's pretty fair for the most part and quite an interesting read. Here's a link to it.
  • thedaveeyres 8 Mar 2013 14:39:28 10,686 posts
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    ecureuil wrote:

    I just gave the thread on r/mensrights a good read through, and it's pretty fair for the most part and quite an interesting read. Here's a link to it.
    The problem with the Men's Rights movement is that it's been hijacked by radicals. :champ:

    There is usually some merit to the discussion on there, however the disingenuous nature of most upvoted comment presently, reflects on some of the worst traits of the movement:

    It's interesting that she mentions how these games are made to "play into the adolescent males power narrative", when in fact the damsel in distress trope does nothing more than portray a man willing to sacrifice everything in his life in order to save a woman. Whatever the male protagonist does, his entire motive and ambition is to go through immense trials, in order to protect and save a woman he finds desireable because this is the only way he can define himself. And at risk to his own life. It portrays men as disempowered, in that their only task is to win the approval of women, who are the final judges of their journey - a road covered with pitfalls and dangerous trials. In fact, it is a journey to become a "real man" by the standards that women impose, and most of the time you will die in the attempt - but that is perfectly OK.
    It could as easily be interpreted from the male point of view, that men are encouraged to jump through hoops and over barrells, in order to win their hand. She is the one who has the final say, and if you don't make it then you're a loser. It's a general theme that says men are encouraged to define themselves in only the terms our society imprints on us. If you can't get the woman then you're not a "real man".
    Now give ME 160000$.
    does nothing more than - Really? All the trope does is portray man's sacrifice?

    It portrays men as disempowered - !

    their only task is to win the approval of women - No, their only task is usually to beat the other men and claim the woman as their prize.

    by the standards that women impose - Lulz. By the standards that other men impose.

    She is the one who has the final say - Mostly, the damsel in distress has no say. She's the trophy.

    If you can't get the woman then you're not a "real man" - As judged by other men.

    Now give ME 160000$ - No. You talk shite.

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  • thedaveeyres 8 Mar 2013 14:41:36 10,686 posts
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    I can't believe I wasted a precious 10 minutes of /r/gonewildcurvy time to reply to that...

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  • ecureuil 8 Mar 2013 14:43:41 76,495 posts
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    I don't see anything wrong with that comment, clearly playing devils advocate for much of it. The discussion has a bit of back and forth as you read the replies.
  • timetraveler 8 Mar 2013 14:46:50 61 posts
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    A lot of game are really sexism. Just as Tomb Raider or Far Cry.
  • mal 8 Mar 2013 14:48:49 22,334 posts
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    Vinicity wrote:
    Surely there are lots more. How about Jade from Beyond Good & Evil, April and Ze from Dreamfall, Madison Paige from Heavy Rain, Elena Fischer from Uncharted, and Chell from Portal?

    Arguably also Yuna from FFX, Zelda from Ocarina of Time, Samus from Metroid, The Boss from MGS3, Alyx Vance from Half-Life, Faith from Mirror's Edge...
    You forgot Amaterasu. Who's female.

    And a god.

    And a dog. Er...

    Be inerested in an analysis of Enslaved. Technically Trip has the upper hand over monkey, but having captured him, then proceeds to mainly play the role of a helpless girl from then on.

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  • bad09 8 Mar 2013 15:08:04 5,623 posts
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    I miss the old days of women and their role in gaming...on the cover and not in the game

  • Widge Moderator 8 Mar 2013 15:27:09 13,259 posts
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    Vinicity wrote:
    Widge wrote:
    The only distinct female leads I can think about, that fall outside of the sextoy/please save me/sassy lady tropes, are GlaDOS and FemShep.
    Surely there are lots more. How about Jade from Beyond Good & Evil, April and Ze from Dreamfall, Madison Paige from Heavy Rain, Elena Fischer from Uncharted, and Chell from Portal?

    Arguably also Yuna from FFX, Zelda from Ocarina of Time, Samus from Metroid, The Boss from MGS3, Alyx Vance from Half-Life, Faith from Mirror's Edge...



    The latter comes across as one of the best female leads in a game as she delivers a script that was meant for a man.
    Really? Surely BioWare were aware that the option of playing as a female would be included when the script was written? Or do you have evidence to the contrary?

    To me it seems as if the script is carefully written to work for both genders...

    Edited by Vinicity at 10:48:36 08-03-2013
    From what I read, Mass Effect was entirely based around ManShep. The option of playing as FemShep was dumped in there as a token gesture. Well it kind of read that way when reading through:

    http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-03-21-ms-effect-the-rise-of-femshep

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  • Deleted user 8 March 2013 15:29:43
    Post deleted
  • Deleted user 8 March 2013 15:41:33
    Nanocrystal wrote:
    Also, Bruce Willis's wife in Die Hard plays a strong, pro-active role in the plot, while Terminator has Sarah fucking Connor! Sorry, even big dumb 80s action films are WAY more progressive than video games are right now.
    That's two films.

    And Ms Genero still needs rescuing.

    Edited by Aargh. at 15:42:20 08-03-2013
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