Tropes vs. Women in Video Games Page 2

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  • Nanocrystal 8 Mar 2013 08:48:50 1,073 posts
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    CosmicFuzz wrote:
    Nanocrystal wrote:
    So we can't talk about sexism and women in video games in a thread called "Sexism and Women in Video Games" on a video game forum because there's discrimination in other media?
    I think you'll find that's exactly what we're doing. Or can people not have differing opinions?
    No, you're not. You're changing the discussion to "well, us poor menz can be discriminated against too".
  • CosmicFuzz 8 Mar 2013 08:50:54 24,925 posts
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    Fucking read my posts

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  • Nanocrystal 8 Mar 2013 08:51:24 1,073 posts
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    CosmicFuzz wrote:
    But it's more prevalent in games because by their nature games are mostly action games. They're like summer blockbusters. So why is it surprising that they are male dominated? If every film was a Die Hard or Terminator then the same problem would exist.

    You don't get the same diversity in games as you do in films or books. As I said earlier, the few games that ARE different (ie Heavy Rain) have more fleshed our characters and stronger female roles.
    Heavy Rain? The game where the lead female has a gratuitous naked shower scene?
  • bad09 8 Mar 2013 08:51:53 6,008 posts
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    Women! Know your place.
  • GuiltySpark 8 Mar 2013 08:54:14 6,431 posts
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    The finish line thing was in response to CosmicFuzz's suggestion that neither gender is portrayed well.

    If you feel like males are portrayed in a positive light, which it's safe to assume that this woman does feel that way (and if she doesn't then she really should have mentioned it) then it's fairly baffling as most males are killing machines within games, which is a much greater problem.

    Take the Double Dragon clip for example, the woman gets punched in the stomach and then dragged away = women are passive, males are active. But it's nowhere near as clear cut as this, because males are seen as aggressive thugs - but no mention is made of this (from what I remember anyway).

    The argument is one sided, and that's a simple problem which she shouldn't make.

    This is a critique of the video itself, not the argument in general btw.

    Edited by GuiltySpark at 08:55:33 08-03-2013

    Get bent.

  • roz123 8 Mar 2013 08:54:43 7,113 posts
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    I would fuck her in all 3 holes
  • CosmicFuzz 8 Mar 2013 08:55:10 24,925 posts
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    Nanocrystal wrote:
    CosmicFuzz wrote:
    But it's more prevalent in games because by their nature games are mostly action games. They're like summer blockbusters. So why is it surprising that they are male dominated? If every film was a Die Hard or Terminator then the same problem would exist.

    You don't get the same diversity in games as you do in films or books. As I said earlier, the few games that ARE different (ie Heavy Rain) have more fleshed our characters and stronger female roles.
    Heavy Rain? The game where the lead female has a gratuitous naked shower scene?
    Why can't a powerful lead female character have a shower scene? Being the object of a male fantasy isn't the same as sexism/discrimination. Pretty much every male character is ripped as fuck and goes around topless at some point.

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  • Nanocrystal 8 Mar 2013 08:55:49 1,073 posts
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    Also, Bruce Willis's wife in Die Hard plays a strong, pro-active role in the plot, while Terminator has Sarah fucking Connor! Sorry, even big dumb 80s action films are WAY more progressive than video games are right now.
  • CosmicFuzz 8 Mar 2013 08:56:32 24,925 posts
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    Also I like how you ignored Walking Dead and every other part of my post to focus on Heavy Rain.

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  • GuiltySpark 8 Mar 2013 08:56:43 6,431 posts
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    Nanocrystal wrote:
    Also, Bruce Willis's wife in Die Hard plays a strong, pro-active role in the plot, while Terminator has Sarah fucking Connor! Sorry, even big dumb 80s action films are WAY more progressive than video games are right now.
    I'm fairly sure Sarah Conner was the absolute epitome of a damsel in distress in that film.

    Get bent.

  • CosmicFuzz 8 Mar 2013 08:58:44 24,925 posts
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    Nanocrystal wrote:
    Also, Bruce Willis's wife in Die Hard plays a strong, pro-active role in the plot, while Terminator has Sarah fucking Connor! Sorry, even big dumb 80s action films are WAY more progressive than video games are right now.
    OK, Gears 3 has a strong female lead, Uncharted games have Two strong female leads, Halo had a strong female lead. I can play this game too.

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  • CosmicFuzz 8 Mar 2013 08:59:49 24,925 posts
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    Also, Bruce Willis wife literally gets captured and has to be rescued!

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  • Nanocrystal 8 Mar 2013 09:01:01 1,073 posts
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    CosmicFuzz wrote:
    Pretty much every male character is ripped as fuck and goes around topless at some point.
    And that's a male fantasy. It's not like that for the benefit of horny women, it's how men want to be (a generalisation of course). You can't compare that to the multitude of big-boobed, scantily clad females in games that are purely there for the sex appeal.
  • thedaveeyres 8 Mar 2013 09:01:27 11,275 posts
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    I don't like her earrings.

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  • GuiltySpark 8 Mar 2013 09:04:54 6,431 posts
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    GuiltySpark wrote:
    Nanocrystal wrote:
    Also, Bruce Willis's wife in Die Hard plays a strong, pro-active role in the plot, while Terminator has Sarah fucking Connor! Sorry, even big dumb 80s action films are WAY more progressive than video games are right now.
    I'm fairly sure Sarah Conner was the absolute epitome of a damsel in distress in that film.
    Terminator 2 however, which I assume it what you're referring to, has a different problem in that to become powerful, she literally has to pick up traditionally masculine traits - muscles and an overall masculine look, and not to mention the urge to kill innocent people.

    That's not exactly positive, is it?

    Get bent.

  • Nanocrystal 8 Mar 2013 09:05:14 1,073 posts
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    CosmicFuzz wrote:
    Nanocrystal wrote:
    Also, Bruce Willis's wife in Die Hard plays a strong, pro-active role in the plot, while Terminator has Sarah fucking Connor! Sorry, even big dumb 80s action films are WAY more progressive than video games are right now.
    OK, Gears 3 has a strong female lead, Uncharted games have Two strong female leads, Halo had a strong female lead. I can play this game too.
    It's a game you'll lose, because my list will be ALL THE OTHER GAMES EVER. ;)
  • Dangerous_Dan 8 Mar 2013 09:07:43 2,378 posts
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    I'm sick of this, just replace all humans with self-replicating robots and be done with it. What a pointless species.
  • CosmicFuzz 8 Mar 2013 09:07:49 24,925 posts
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    Haha. I still think games are blockbusters, so they need strong physical main characters, so that goes towards males (like action movies do). And GS has a good point that Sarah Connor only becomes strong by acting like a male :p

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  • Stuz359 8 Mar 2013 09:07:54 16 posts
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    The problem for me is a lack of a balanced argument. She has clearly focused only on games which support her argument whilst ignoring those that don't. Not only that, but she has conveniently focused on an era in which games were at their simplest, when games needed a simple and clear plot device to give you an excuse to play the game.

    She focuses on Mario and Zelda too, which is unfortunate, as I always look on them as fairy tales for children, which also feature a lot of damsels in distress.

    In short, needs balance and context to be a convincing argument. Cherry picking only what supports your argument automatically renders it invalid.
  • the_dudefather 8 Mar 2013 09:12:10 9,328 posts
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    CosmicFuzz wrote:
    Also, Bruce Willis wife literally gets captured and has to be rescued!
    In Die hard she is in the same situation as the other hostages, but she still stands up the the terrorists and improves their situation, despite their willingness to kill and her lack of anything to bargain with

    OK, it just leads to a more comfortable seat for a pregnant woman and toilets for everyone else, but it's still something

    argument may vary depending on how well I remember Die Hard

    Edited by the_dudefather at 09:13:11 08-03-2013

    (ง ͠ ͟ʖ ͡)

  • b0rk 8 Mar 2013 09:12:36 2,883 posts
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    ecureuil wrote:
    I just don't see this as a feminist issue at all. There are games with male leads, there are games with female leads, there are games with women in peril, there are games with men in peril, there's a whole variety of stories and tropes.

    Games that run the "damsel in distress" trope tend to not have fleshed out characters of either gender. Men are generally represented in games as violent, emotionless murderers. People who are psychotic and take pleasure in killing. Where are the thinking men, or the sensitive men? They're as rare as strong leads such as Samus or Terra.

    She's implying an undercurrent of sexism and women-hating from games creators, when really in 90% of games (especially 16 bit and earlier), the plot is totally periphery and is just an excuse to get your male character out there killing things. Games which have deeper characters tend not to run this trope, and they at least make an effort to have more developed characters of both sexes.

    Since there are many other parts to come, maybe she'll balance it out, but currently it feels like she's trying to push an agenda.
    Of course it's an agenda, it is the feminist agenda. Feminism isn't about egalitarianism anymore and has been hijacked by radicals. They're really just a bunch of quite crazy
    hypocritical bigots who simply want to replace a "patriarchal" society with a matriarchal one. I'm sure many of you are familiar with the Radfem Hub debacle but here are some links anyway.

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Radfem_Hub


    http://agentorangefiles.com/

    Also I'd like to recommend girlwriteswhat because she deals with a lot of feminist bullshit.

    http://www.youtube.com/user/girlwriteswhat
  • GuiltySpark 8 Mar 2013 09:14:31 6,431 posts
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    the_dudefather wrote:
    CosmicFuzz wrote:
    Also, Bruce Willis wife literally gets captured and has to be rescued!
    In Die hard she is in the same situation as the other hostages, but she still stands up the the terrorists and improves their situation, despite their willingness to kill and her lack of anything to bargain with

    OK, it just leads to a more comfortable seat for a pregnant woman and toilets for everyone else, but it's still something
    That would be a 'helper' role - a female character.

    Get bent.

  • the_dudefather 8 Mar 2013 09:16:45 9,328 posts
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    Doesn't help John though

    (ง ͠ ͟ʖ ͡)

  • GuiltySpark 8 Mar 2013 09:17:50 6,431 posts
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    the_dudefather wrote:
    Doesn't help John though
    Nobody helps John McClane, because he's John McClane.

    Get bent.

  • thedaveeyres 8 Mar 2013 09:25:12 11,275 posts
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    On the perceived lack of balanced argument: Historically a large proportion of games involving a character in peril conform to the damsel in distress trope, and this is also the defined scope of the study. She mentions that in episode two she will be looking at games that subvert this trope - it'll be a short look I expect as they're aren't many. I see no cherry picking here, only focus on the subject matter. What would be the point in devoting time to subgenres where the trope isn't as apparent: ie. Racing games (even then.... Outrun. Driver is male, female is the passenger who provocatively spills from the car when you crash. See? She could even make an argument in many of the non-sexualised sub-genres).

    On this being somehow related to radical feminism: Seriously? Fucking lol. Lolling out my arse here. Men's Rights tripe.

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  • Mr-Brett 8 Mar 2013 09:28:11 12,828 posts
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    ecureuil wrote:
    She needed $150,000 for this? It's not bad, but people are producing things as good as this for nothing but their free time. There's nothing wrong with it, but I didn't feel like I learnt anything from watching it.
    Nope, she only asked for $6,000.

    She got more because a lot of people seem to be interested and because of the backlash against the complete tools that started sending her threats.

    Level 37 Social Justice Warrior

  • GuiltySpark 8 Mar 2013 09:31:59 6,431 posts
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    thedaveeyres wrote:
    On the perceived lack of balanced argument: Historically a large proportion of games involving a character in peril conform to the damsel in distress trope, and this is also the defined scope of the study. She mentions that in episode two she will be looking at games that subvert this trope - it'll be a short look I expect as they're aren't many. I see no cherry picking here, only focus on the subject matter. What would be the point in devoting time to subgenres where the trope isn't as apparent: ie. Racing games (even then.... Outrun. Driver is male, female is the passenger who provocatively spills from the car when you crash. See? She could even make an argument in many of the non-sexualised sub-genres).
    I mentioned earlier:

    "Take the Double Dragon clip for example, the woman gets punched in the stomach and then dragged away = women are passive, males are active. But it's nowhere near as clear cut as this, because males are seen as aggressive thugs - but no mention is made of this (from what I remember anyway).

    The argument is one sided, and that's a simple problem which she shouldn't make."

    I understand the focus of the video and whatnot, but it's just something that stood out to me. To me at least, you can't mention one without the other.

    Get bent.

  • b0rk 8 Mar 2013 09:35:05 2,883 posts
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    thedaveeyres wrote:
    On the perceived lack of balanced argument: Historically a large proportion of games involving a character in peril conform to the damsel in distress trope, and this is also the defined scope of the study. She mentions that in episode two she will be looking at games that subvert this trope - it'll be a short look I expect as they're aren't many. I see no cherry picking here, only focus on the subject matter. What would be the point in devoting time to subgenres where the trope isn't as apparent: ie. Racing games (even then.... Outrun. Driver is male, female is the passenger who provocatively spills from the car when you crash. See? She could even make an argument in many of the non-sexualised sub-genres).

    On this being somehow related to radical feminism: Seriously? Fucking lol. Lolling out my arse here. Men's Rights tripe.
    Feminism has been hijacked by radicals is what I said. Even a pea-brain with a months investigative research could see that.
  • thedaveeyres 8 Mar 2013 09:35:36 11,275 posts
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    Why do we have to see her knickers?

    Violence in videogames in general is a whole other area of debate. Violence in videogames towards women is noteworthy within the scope of the debate, and she notes it.

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  • thedaveeyres 8 Mar 2013 09:36:08 11,275 posts
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    B0rked_Gamer wrote:

    Feminism has been hijacked by radicals is what I said. Even a pea-brain with a months investigative research could see that.
    Listen to yourself. Just listen.

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