Sexism and Women in Video Games: Anita Sarkeesian goes to bat for girls Page 8

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  • CosmicFuzz 27 Mar 2013 14:22:59 21,240 posts
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    Is the issue 'men saving women' or 'women needing rescued' because they're not the same thing.

    Also, this is boring now. Let's just agree women get the short straw in all media and call it a day.

    What's your thoughts on Heroes Reborn? Read my TV musings here.

  • Dangerous_Dan 27 Mar 2013 14:24:58 2,175 posts
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    JinTypeNoir wrote:
    Dangerous_Dan wrote: It contains masculine qualities like aggressiveness, strive for power and so on in a virtual environment.
    *beep beep beep* This is a message from the Committee of Gender Entanglement. We still haven't found out whether this is biologically true, or a perception caused by society encouraging us to think that.
    That's a definition, namely masculine qualities. Do not confuse it with biological man or woman. But I'm not sure what exactly you are saying. Are you saying that an average boy, if being raised like a girl would psychologically not be different from an average girl?
  • JinTypeNoir 27 Mar 2013 14:41:33 4,365 posts
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    No, I'm saying if that provides if male power fantasies provide catharsis through those tropes because it contains masculine qualities that you described, are those masculine qualities by definition because they are biologically true or because they are definition provided by society based on a traditional view of masculinity in a certain culture? If it is the latter, then it stands to reason that if those power fantasies do provide that catharsis, the next good step would be to take the gender out of the fantasy and make it applicable to both genders. If it is the former, then we have the problem of providing equal opportunities for women to indulge in equivalent female power fantasies that are relevant to them.

    This involves entangling the hard question whether masculine definitions are biological facts or sociological norms that are not necessarily hard written in males.

    BTW and this is completely unrelated to you, Dangerous Dan, so don't think I'm harping on you in any way, have you ever seen the thread about this on NeoGAF?

    It's...really something.
  • Dangerous_Dan 27 Mar 2013 15:22:47 2,175 posts
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    My current idea on this.

    There are masculine qualities and there are feminine qualities. Some may overlap and some are maybe represented in both but in a different fashion.
    The reason why they are called masculine and feminine qualities is because the one is predominantely present in males and the other in females. I don't think that this is because of a social construct with its origin today. It is two roles, two biological roles which evolved over many millenias.

    Is the behaviour of a male/female animal a social construct or biological in nature - for me it is the biological, meaning it is for the biggest part encoded in the genes.

    Thus I think an average boy which were to be raised as a girl would still have a masculine psychology. But I don't want to speak in absolutes. So, let's say you have the absolute male who is 100% masculine and on the other spectrum is the female who is 100% feminine - these are absolutes which aren't a reality in the physical world.

    In reality I think that a man is usually between 50 to 100% masculine, the rest of him being feminine. A woman is usually between
    50 to 100% feminine and the rest being masculine. So on average a guy is about 75% masculine and 25% feminine while the other way around for the average woman.

    The environment factors into the development of biological males and females. I'd say we live in a world where masculine qualities are less and less desirable. A high population density, which is increasing, requires more feminine qualities from a person. Isn't in Japan the phenomenon of the 'Herbivore men' on the rise. To me that's a coping mechanism for males in a very highly structured, ordered, high density society. If a man has rather low amount of masculine qualities then he'll be integrated into current societies rather easily. If he has rather a lot of it then he may become an aggressive radical element, like a criminal or he could go the other route and become withdrawn - social alienation and things like that.

    You may read up on John B. Calhoun and his rodent experiments with high population density. Fascinating social things are happening.
  • JinTypeNoir 7 Apr 2013 01:31:54 4,365 posts
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    John Walker at Rock, Paper, Shotgun writes an excellent article about misogyny and feminism in the industry. It's definitely recommended reading.

    Anita shows up in the article in several places, but this, I think is the best:

    Anita Sarkeesian, in her GDC talk “Equality, Or GTFO”, quoted a perfect metaphor for this, quoting Beverly Daniel Tatum’s moving walkway (those horizontal travelators you see at airports) idea from Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together In The Cafeteria?. The gaming industry and those who write about it, she says, are stood on this moving walkway, always trundling toward the sexism and misogyny that infests throughout. There are of course those who march forward toward it, embracing it. But most, she says, are standing still. They don’t particularly desire or support it, but they also don’t want to think about it, discuss it, contest it. So they stand still, and in doing so, inexorably glide toward it.

    The only way to make a difference, Sarkeesian argued, is to turn around and actively walk against the flow of the travelator. Something which is, it occurs to me, not easy. Not only are you walking against the flow of movement, but you’re also going to bump into everyone heading in the other direction. And some people are going to be hostile about this, especially if they think you might start a trend, start seeing others change direction, maybe even enough to see the direction of that walkway changed. The voluminous responses of wanting to talk about something else is a combined effort to stand still on that walkway, and that’s not something we’re willing to do.
    John and Anita make an excellent point.
  • B0rked_Gamer 7 Apr 2013 02:06:44 1,858 posts
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    The widespread and blatant sexism in videogames is frankly fucking embarrassing, but feminism as it exists today is a pernicious and dishonest ideology and not something I want having any part in the gaming industry so it's a tricky situation.

    /ponders
  • FWB 7 Apr 2013 02:45:12 41,916 posts
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    150k? Managed to pull that off well. Looks like a hefty chunk was spent on the make up budget.
  • B0rked_Gamer 7 Apr 2013 02:56:44 1,858 posts
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    Thing is she was already making videos of comparable quality before the kickstarter. The camera was expensive but she already had that.

    Here is a Bayonetta video she made and subsequently took down for whatever reason.

  • Tonka 7 Apr 2013 06:02:16 19,840 posts
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    Are you guys saying she isn't allowed to make money? If so then why not?

    If you can read this you really need to fiddle with your forum settings.

  • B0rked_Gamer 7 Apr 2013 06:25:23 1,858 posts
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    It's a bit shifty asking for money to make a video that appears to be no different in overall quality than her other videos. Why did she even need the money, for research? It doesn't make any sense at all. After watching most of her other videos she comes across as someone who sees patriarchy in everything.
  • brn 7 Apr 2013 07:18:42 217 posts
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    well, you can do work for free, or you can get paid doing it — if someone is willing to pay for said work. in this case people were willing.

    myself i would never do what anita does unless i got paid much much more, given the constant shit she has to take from her own community. thay goes for any job where i had to deal with death and rape threats.

    feminism is not dishonest. sure there are rottem eggs but the ideology is basicly this: for men and women to live on equal terms.

    it's no different really from say, an anti-racism movement.
  • ZuluHero 7 Apr 2013 08:08:50 3,659 posts
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    The negativity surrounding the amount of money she asked for and what was produced sort of lessens the impact of the point she is trying to get across. Even fans and followers of her work were expecting more for their money, like a longer more feature length version of what she does.
  • CosmicFuzz 7 Apr 2013 08:35:14 21,240 posts
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    It's all well and good to say men and women should live on equal terms, and on one hand I agree with you. But both sexes aren't created equally. One can have children, the other can't. That does and always will cause massive problems in the strive for equality, especially in the workplace. I realise this has nothing to do with the point of the debate really, but the way I see it, women who get pregnant need more time off work etc, in a way that a man never will. That isn't equal, so why can't people just accept that often equality is impossible, but as long as everyone's happy what's the big deal?

    Also, I'd quite like to see a list of video games that Anita sees as being fair on women so we have a benchmark to compare other titles to.

    What's your thoughts on Heroes Reborn? Read my TV musings here.

  • ZuluHero 7 Apr 2013 08:47:51 3,659 posts
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    Some countries are more progressive when it comes to paternity leave (like sweden?) and there's no reason others couldn't follow suit to go some way towards that equilibrium.
  • B0rked_Gamer 7 Apr 2013 09:03:13 1,858 posts
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    Sweden is, like, fucking crazy to be fair.
  • Mr-Brett 7 Apr 2013 09:42:48 12,676 posts
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    ZuluHero wrote:
    The negativity surrounding the amount of money she asked for and what was produced sort of lessens the impact of the point she is trying to get across. Even fans and followers of her work were expecting more for their money, like a longer more feature length version of what she does.
    Does it? she asked for $6000 and if she's treating this as a job (I have no idea if she is or isn't) then that's not an unreasonable amount. The fact that she got a lot more than asked for is irrelevant, she has no obligation to scale up.

    Portable view - Never forget.

  • King_Edward 7 Apr 2013 09:42:55 11,454 posts
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    B0rked_Gamer wrote:
    The widespread and blatant sexism in videogames is frankly fucking embarrassing, but feminism as it exists today is a pernicious and dishonest ideology and not something I want having any part in the gaming industry so it's a tricky situation.
    What do you think feminism is?
  • ZuluHero 7 Apr 2013 10:23:11 3,659 posts
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    @Mr-Brett I think so. People expected more than what she usually does and I think that shifts the focus a bit. I certainly don't begrudge her the money, I've enjoyed the other stuff she's done and its of a high standard, but I know that a lot of other followers, especially those who pledged, have been asking more about where the money has been spent rather than talking about the subject matter and the message she's trying to get across.
  • FWB 7 Apr 2013 10:30:10 41,916 posts
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    If she did just ask for 6k and people pledged more, what does it matter what she spends it on? People could see how much she was getting, and if they were stupid enough to keep giving her cash when she never asked for more, then good luck to her.

    The videos state the bleeding obvious to me. Nothing new and far from deep, but hey, if that's what people wanted then so be it.

    Yep, many games portray women in a certain light, but then those particular ones are aimed at horny teenage boys. If other demographics start playing video games then that balance would change. It is called the free market and it just produces what buyers want. Hence the constant Call of Duty shite. Just don't buy it.

    Edited by FWB at 10:36:25 07-04-2013
  • Mr-Brett 7 Apr 2013 10:32:19 12,676 posts
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    I understand the concern but I think people need think a bit more before throwing money at a kickstarter. It's a bizarre situation where she asked for an amount and then gets loads more then people ask what she's doing with it. If I offer you a chocolate bar for 50p and you give me £50 then come back later asking what else you're getting I'd probably tell you "erm... my gratitude?"

    Ok that's a crap example but I think the issue is more the lack of understanding about kickstarter rather than Anita herself.

    Portable view - Never forget.

  • FWB 7 Apr 2013 10:37:31 41,916 posts
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    Exactly. People are stupid.

    I don't understand what on earth these people chucking so much money at her were expecting. It is pretty clear from the vids that she doesn't require that much money to produce them.

    Edited by FWB at 10:40:10 07-04-2013
  • B0rked_Gamer 7 Apr 2013 12:14:22 1,858 posts
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    King_Edward wrote:
    B0rked_Gamer wrote:
    The widespread and blatant sexism in videogames is frankly fucking embarrassing, but feminism as it exists today is a pernicious and dishonest ideology and not something I want having any part in the gaming industry so it's a tricky situation.
    What do you think feminism is?
    It's simply a power grab. They want to replace what they perceive as a patriarchal society with a matriarchal one. Some of the more radical ones want to "destroy gender" altogether because they think it's socially constructed. Actually they also think sexuality is socially constructed.

    Basically they want a Marxist utopia.

    All that's fine and dandy, it's just people with a political opinion and viewpoint right? Unfortunately in some parts of the world their ideals are getting traction and being put into practice and what I've seen has made me fucking depressed.



    Janice Fiamengo also recently gave a talk where she outlines the problems with current academic feminism. It's pretty grim stuff.
  • FWB 7 Apr 2013 12:24:21 41,916 posts
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    So there are a few nutters/wankers hijacking the cause. What's new? Happens with everything. Doesn't compare to the outright abuse of woman that continues across many parts of the globe.

    That video needs a kickstarter. It also gives the impression that some female revolution planning to enslave all men is around the corner in Spain.
  • manic_mouse 7 Apr 2013 12:50:21 239 posts
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    So there are a few nutters/wankers hijacking the cause. What's new?
    Except nobody stands up against those hijacking feminism and exploiting it. Because anyone that does is instantly branded a sexist. Just look at the whole Adria Richards debacle for perfect example. That story SHOULD have been about how a woman leveraged the "sexism" claim to her own ends to hurt two men when there wasn't even any sexism in the first place. Yet still serious news sites report it like she was the victim of some sexist abuse. Eventually she was, sure, but not from the original two guys from which the whole thing needlessly escalated because Richards had an agenda.

    There are absolutely loads of examples of women being oppressed throughout the world. No debate there. There are also loads of examples of men and women hiding behind feminism and using it as a club with which to hit men. When people like Richards cry "sexism" and "crime against humanity" when someone makes a dongle joke she happens to overhear and then feminists of the world unite to support her it doesn't give the movement much traction with the neutral or opposed viewpoints. There's a big difference between "men and women should be equal" and "men are evil, women are faultless", yet both are branded feminism.

    Again look at the story about women's pay on this very site - the study ignored results that showed women coders get paid more than men because it didn't suit their agenda. They then published all the places where women get paid less "on average" ignoring confounding factors. Studies have actually shown that when you control for confounders (ie: make the playing field completely fair which is what this is supposed to be about right?) that the pay gap between men and women doesn't exist to any great degree.

    Simple fact is you can't say anything bad about feminism or feminists without being labeled a misogynist, even if you're completely right. It's an easy strawman for anyone to make to support themselves.

    Edited by manic_mouse at 12:59:26 07-04-2013
  • disusedgenius 7 Apr 2013 12:55:01 5,140 posts
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    manic_mouse wrote:
    Simple fact is you can't say anything bad about feminism or feminists without being labeled a misogynist, even if you're completely right.
    Really, though? Or is this some weird reverse victim play in effect?
  • B0rked_Gamer 7 Apr 2013 12:56:32 1,858 posts
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    It's more than a few nutters to be honest and the whole NAFALT thing is mostly bullshit.
  • B0rked_Gamer 7 Apr 2013 12:59:52 1,858 posts
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    disusedgenius wrote:
    manic_mouse wrote:
    Simple fact is you can't say anything bad about feminism or feminists without being labeled a misogynist, even if you're completely right.
    Really, though? Or is this some weird reverse victim play in effect?
    I think you'll find it's feminists who continue to play the victim card. The MRA movement surprised me, why would they even need one at all? It started because of the injustices in the family court system. It couldn't have been easy to start a men's rights movement, what with the male ego being the thing it is. ;)
  • King_Edward 7 Apr 2013 13:01:44 11,454 posts
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    @manic_mouse

    Simple fact is you can't say anything bad about feminism or feminists without being labeled a misogynist, even if you're completely right. It's an easy strawman for anyone to make to support themselves.
    Maybe you shouldn't be using these events to attack feminism, and should instead focus on the individual abusing it, and by that I mean point out why she's wrong, rather than theaten to rape her.

    Edited by King_Edward at 13:04:17 07-04-2013
  • disusedgenius 7 Apr 2013 13:03:56 5,140 posts
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    B0rked_Gamer wrote:
    I think you'll find it's feminists who continue to play the victim card.
    No, I think you'll find it's [insert the opposite group that you agree with] which takes the victim card.

    But really, take almost any article on the internet which has a whiff of pro-feminism about it and take a look at the comments. It should be pretty obvious to anyone which 'side' has the most vitriol and unsavoury venom.
  • manic_mouse 7 Apr 2013 13:04:32 239 posts
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    disusedgenius wrote:
    manic_mouse wrote:
    Simple fact is you can't say anything bad about feminism or feminists without being labeled a misogynist, even if you're completely right.
    Really, though? Or is this some weird reverse victim play in effect?
    I think the whole Adria Richards thing proves the point nicely. Anyone who (rightly) pointed out that there was nothing sexist about what the guys said and that Adria was completely and maliciously in the wrong was labelled a sexist by Adria's feminist followers.
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