Sexism and Women in Video Games: Anita Sarkeesian goes to bat for girls Page 5

  • Page

    of 19 First / Last

  • CosmicFuzz 9 Mar 2013 13:59:13 23,189 posts
    Seen 54 minutes ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    Anyway, this is all off topic. Most video games require a masculine (not necessarily male) lead role as they are action. This lends itself naturally to males, but there are female leads (who act masculine, ie Tomb Raider, Perfect Dark).

    I think Uncharted shows a strong female role in Elena (spelling...). She's not a typical damsel in distress, she does need rescuing occasionally but she can handle herself fine and is shows independence from Drake etc.

    Looking for a new gaming podcast to listen to? LOOK NO FURTHER!

  • sanctusmortis 9 Mar 2013 16:08:33 9,627 posts
    Seen 20 hours ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    I still can't believe we've had part 1 of a two-part video on a single topic, and all this already happened. Crikey.

    She's covering a LOT more: see the Kickstarter's main page for a list of all 12 topics she announced. We've got halfway through topic one and people are already white knighting the globe, FFS.
  • Kanjin 9 Mar 2013 17:05:01 1,052 posts
    Seen 21 hours ago
    Registered 6 years ago
    Is this really white knighting? Thought we were having a good old EG argument.
  • Deleted user 9 March 2013 17:06:11
    How can you all possibly get into an argument on this topic?
  • mcmothercruncher 9 Mar 2013 17:13:01 6,451 posts
    Seen 1 hour ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    My overarching thought on watching the video wass WHAT THE FUCK HAVE YOU DONE TO YOUR EYEBROWS LADY?
    I couldn't get an further after that .
  • Syrette 9 Mar 2013 17:21:25 43,063 posts
    Seen 20 hours ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    womensrightslol

  • CosmicFuzz 9 Mar 2013 18:30:16 23,189 posts
    Seen 54 minutes ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    sanctusmortis wrote:
    I still can't believe we've had part 1 of a two-part video on a single topic, and all this already happened. Crikey.

    She's covering a LOT more: see the Kickstarter's main page for a list of all 12 topics she announced. We've got halfway through topic one and people are already white knighting the globe, FFS.
    Are we not allowed to try and analyse/discuss the topic ourselves? Do we need to wait until she's finished the series?

    Looking for a new gaming podcast to listen to? LOOK NO FURTHER!

  • B0rked_Gamer 9 Mar 2013 18:36:19 2,482 posts
    Seen 7 hours ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    I've watched some of her other videos and honestly she comes across as just another miserable angry feminist. It's kind of like a cult in the way its members can't seem to think logically and keep repeating the same things.
  • Metalfish 9 Mar 2013 18:50:11 8,787 posts
    Seen 23 minutes ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    B0rked_Gamer wrote:
    I've watched some of her other videos and honestly she comes across as just another miserable angry feminist. It's kind of like a cult in the way its members can't seem to think logically and keep repeating the same things.
    Go on, treat yourself: give us some examples.
  • B0rked_Gamer 9 Mar 2013 18:52:14 2,482 posts
    Seen 7 hours ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    Just watch the videos for yourself.
  • Metalfish 9 Mar 2013 19:11:24 8,787 posts
    Seen 23 minutes ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    But that wouldn't give me any insight into you, cupcake.
  • B0rked_Gamer 9 Mar 2013 19:44:05 2,482 posts
    Seen 7 hours ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    Metalfish wrote:
    But that wouldn't give me any insight into you, cupcake.
    Are you using ethics on me? :D
  • jonsaan 9 Mar 2013 19:54:14 25,326 posts
    Seen 1 hour ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    Retro gaming was far simpler. My large pixel on Adventure (AtariVCS) could be anything I wanted HIM to be.

    FCUTA!

  • Nanocrystal 9 Mar 2013 23:18:46 991 posts
    Seen 1 day ago
    Registered 5 years ago
    CosmicFuzz wrote:
    Anyway, this is all off topic. Most video games require a masculine (not necessarily male) lead role as they are action. This lends itself naturally to males, but there are female leads (who act masculine, ie Tomb Raider, Perfect Dark).
    That's some pretty hardcore gender stereotyping right there. Why do action games lend themselves more naturally to males? The only reason you think that is because most action movies have historically had male leads. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    It's like the common belief that women aren't as good at mathematics or spatial reasoning than men (backed up by evidence-free speculation on how our brains evolved during hunter-gatherer times, a period which we really know very little about). There was a study where they tested women's abilities at solving maths puzzles with two groups. Before the test, one group was told that women are naturally less suited to solving maths problems than men, and the women performed poorly. The second group was told that in fact there was no scientific evidence for this, that women and men can be assumed to have equal ability, and in that group the women's performance matched that of the men!

    Men and women alike are brought up by society to believe that their gender limits them to certain areas and there are huge expectations on how a man or a woman should behave which end up perpetuating the stereotypes.

    And even when there is a genuine, measurable disparity between the genders (say, in pure physical strength), such observations really have little use because they say nothing about individuals, only the average across a large population. A randomly chosen woman could be physically stronger than a randomly chosen man, and should be judged on her own merits rather than her gender.
  • Syrette 10 Mar 2013 00:30:42 43,063 posts
    Seen 20 hours ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    Women can't drive as well as men. This is a fact.

  • JinTypeNoir 10 Mar 2013 01:34:31 4,365 posts
    Seen 3 months ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    Nanocrystal wrote:
    CosmicFuzz wrote:
    Anyway, this is all off topic. Most video games require a masculine (not necessarily male) lead role as they are action. This lends itself naturally to males, but there are female leads (who act masculine, ie Tomb Raider, Perfect Dark).
    That's some pretty hardcore gender stereotyping right there. Why do action games lend themselves more naturally to males? The only reason you think that is because most action movies have historically had male leads. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    It's like the common belief that women aren't as good at mathematics or spatial reasoning than men (backed up by evidence-free speculation on how our brains evolved during hunter-gatherer times, a period which we really know very little about). There was a study where they tested women's abilities at solving maths puzzles with two groups. Before the test, one group was told that women are naturally less suited to solving maths problems than men, and the women performed poorly. The second group was told that in fact there was no scientific evidence for this, that women and men can be assumed to have equal ability, and in that group the women's performance matched that of the men!
    I agree 102%. I remember thinking the same thing when reading that post. I had no idea there were studies like that, that's pretty awesome. I also like you point out we make this ridiculous scientific-seeming statements about ancient history as if we have as strong a data sample of it as we do modern history. I've always found that suspect thinking, however correct or incorrect to whatever extent it might turn out to be.

    On the whole thing about self-fulfilling prophecies, going back to this video. What does it say when women designers design games that males find sexist? Could it be said that we are forcing an idea of sexism on them they don't agree with, or is it part of the self-fulfilling prophecy where the cultures they have been raised makes them create works that are sexist to a degree unconsciously? I think either possibility is a horrid thought, because both seem like "Poor woman, you can do no better right now." thinking. I have a suspicion that some of what we call sexist just gets caught up in the headlights and isn't really.

    Two creators come to mind. Roberta Williams and Kinu Nishimura. I suppose you all know who Roberta Williams is. In King's Quest II and III, Rosella and Valanice are, as Anita would put it, "damseled" either during the entire game or at a certain point. If its so abhorrent to perpetuate this in the King's Quest games, I find it hard to imagine an intelligent woman like Roberta would do it. But she didn't do it to be accurate to traditional fairy tales either, obviously, because later on in the series Rosella and Valanice become main characters of their own games; Rosella even rescues a helpless prince twice! They both continue to be quite "girly" (which is to say, they don't machismo)characters without weak at all as well; girliness and weakness are obviously not on the same spectrum for Roberta. And obviously this is different from what we understand of how many women were portrayed in fairy tales. But in the same era these games came out, VI went back to a prince saving a helpless princess who can only send a letter or message to him from her balcony window. She even made the Laura Bow games, which had female protagonists. So what's the deal here?

    Kinu Nishimura is a former female Capcom artist and designer who has recently, notably done the artwork for the Zero Escape series and Code of Princess. Code of Princess is interesting, because the main character looks like this:



    It's been called ridiculously sexist many, many times. But it complicates matters that she was not commissioned to draw this. Code of Princess came about because the directors and designers of the game saw some of her pictures and settings of an original universe she had designed. Nishimura is responsible for the basic setting, storyline and characters of the game and the person who sparked its development. The MALE staff asked her if her Solange (the character above) was not going too far? Nishimura responded that she liked drawing sexy women characters; that this is what appealed to her. Not only is this seemingly sexist apparently the entirely the idea of a woman, but the game's basic universe is her creation too. The designers consulted Nishimura at every turn in the creation of the game to make sure it fit her vision. (By the way, its a great game that recalls Guardian Heroes, if you are at all interested in that, it comes recommended.) I don't think its unreasonable to say that Nishimura shouldn't be able to have a barbarian princess character in her designed games it is "not right." That seems more sexist than the alternative.
  • CosmicFuzz 10 Mar 2013 01:39:28 23,189 posts
    Seen 54 minutes ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    @Nanocrystal are you seriously asking me why action games lend themselves to males? Action anything lends itself to males. Films, tv, books. I'm not taking sides, just pointing it out. Action hero = almost always men. That's how it is.

    And even when it's a woman, she's a masculine woman. Strong, tough, etc, the same "classic" male action hero traits. Again, not saying whether it's right, that's just the way it is.

    And there are examples of strong female roles. Cortana, Elena, girl from Heavy Rain etc.

    Looking for a new gaming podcast to listen to? LOOK NO FURTHER!

  • CosmicFuzz 10 Mar 2013 01:45:06 23,189 posts
    Seen 54 minutes ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    Also, WTF about women being equal at spatial awareness? What has that got to do with anything? Whether it's a self fulfilling prophecy or not, the FACT is that action films mainly have male lead characters, and it's the same with games.

    Looking for a new gaming podcast to listen to? LOOK NO FURTHER!

  • B0rked_Gamer 10 Mar 2013 03:22:22 2,482 posts
    Seen 7 hours ago
    Registered 8 years ago
  • Nanocrystal 10 Mar 2013 03:48:53 991 posts
    Seen 1 day ago
    Registered 5 years ago
    @CosmicFuzz
    My issue is that you're arguing that women in dominant action type roles are behaving in a masculine way. I'm saying there's nothing inherently masculine about an action role, we just make that association because the overwhelming majority of lead action roles are male. It's a gender stereotype. We all know "that's just how it is". The interesting thing is why is it? And should it be?
  • PenguinJim 10 Mar 2013 03:57:01 5,757 posts
    Seen 21 minutes ago
    Registered 7 years ago
    CosmicFuzz wrote:
    Also, WTF about women being equal at spatial awareness? What has that got to do with anything? Whether it's a self fulfilling prophecy or not, the FACT is that action films mainly have male lead characters, and it's the same with games.
    And male actors are paid more. Obviously they are better actors. It's not simply a case of historical discrimination and the inertia of changing trends - men are better. Fact.
  • OptimusPube 10 Mar 2013 05:10:41 2,907 posts
    Seen 1 day ago
    Registered 2 years ago
    CosmicFuzz wrote:
    @Nanocrystal are you seriously asking me why action games lend themselves to males? Action anything lends itself to males. Films, tv, books. I'm not taking sides, just pointing it out. Action hero = almost always men. That's how it is.

    And even when it's a woman, she's a masculine woman. Strong, tough, etc, the same "classic" male action hero traits. Again, not saying whether it's right, that's just the way it is.

    And there are examples of strong female roles. Cortana, Elena, girl from Heavy Rain etc.
    Ha what a load of bull, one of the most famous horror film series has a female lead role and she's far from masculine in the beginning, as the story progresses she builds up the courage and strength to fight her fears to fight the enemy, what am I talking about? The Alien series, you could also say the same for Terminator and Kill Bill, I could come up with dozens of other examples but can't be arsed.

    You better watch out.
    You better beware.
    Albert said E=MC˛

  • GuiltySpark 10 Mar 2013 05:30:01 6,322 posts
    Seen 4 hours ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    Nanocrystal wrote:
    @CosmicFuzz
    My issue is that you're arguing that women in dominant action type roles are behaving in a masculine way. I'm saying there's nothing inherently masculine about an action role, we just make that association because the overwhelming majority of lead action roles are male. It's a gender stereotype. We all know "that's just how it is". The interesting thing is why is it? And should it be?
    'Masculine' is believed to be a set of characteristics we associate with males. Associating actions with male, and calling them masculine is fine and perfectly reasonable. Saying action is 'male' would be wrong.

    There is a divide between the masculine and male, and feminine and female. They aren't exclusive.

    Get bent.

  • Nanocrystal 10 Mar 2013 06:23:27 991 posts
    Seen 1 day ago
    Registered 5 years ago
    Yes, i totally agree, gender roles are not the same thing as sex. Male = has a penis, masculine = has a set of characteristics typically assoiated with the male sex. And my argument is that the latter descriptors are pretty much entirely subjective, and are simply down to what society perceives. If, historically, more action roles has been played by females, these same traits would be considered feminine. Gender roles are therefore not set in stone, and in fact are pretty worthless. All they do is restrict people to certain socially acceptable areas.

    And i disagree that "associating actions with male and calling them masculine is fine and perfectly reasonable". Most political leaders have historically been male, but the reason for this is that women have been held back in various ways. It's therefore totally unfair, untrue and inappropriate to refer to leadership as a masculine trait. Stereotypes are almost never acceptable.
  • King_Edward 10 Mar 2013 08:06:14 11,454 posts
    Seen 4 days ago
    Registered 4 years ago
    B0rked_Gamer wrote:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lERF9q40iS0&hd=1
    That's a joke here I'm not getting, right? That guy's gotta be doing a 'pub landlord', his opinion can't be that backward.
  • CosmicFuzz 10 Mar 2013 08:32:14 23,189 posts
    Seen 54 minutes ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    OptimusPube wrote:
    CosmicFuzz wrote:
    @Nanocrystal are you seriously asking me why action games lend themselves to males? Action anything lends itself to males. Films, tv, books. I'm not taking sides, just pointing it out. Action hero = almost always men. That's how it is.

    And even when it's a woman, she's a masculine woman. Strong, tough, etc, the same "classic" male action hero traits. Again, not saying whether it's right, that's just the way it is.

    And there are examples of strong female roles. Cortana, Elena, girl from Heavy Rain etc.
    Ha what a load of bull, one of the most famous horror film series has a female lead role and she's far from masculine in the beginning, as the story progresses she builds up the courage and strength to fight her fears to fight the enemy, what am I talking about? The Alien series, you could also say the same for Terminator and Kill Bill, I could come up with dozens of other examples but can't be arsed.
    I'll give you Alien, and I'll give you Kill Bill. If you read my post properly I said "almost always". Go ahead and list me dozens, I'll list you hundreds.

    And Terminator? In T1 she is LITERALLY a damsel in distress. And in T2 she is the most manly female ever portrayed on screen.

    AGAIN I'm not saying what's right or wrong, but anyone that seriously argues that action hero roles aren't traditionally male driven are talking arse.

    The interesting question, as Nanocrystal says, is if that is sexist or not. Nowadays, I think women in action films (and video games) have evolved beyond the 'damsel in distress' they once were. Fine, they may not always be the lead, but they're not some flimsy, one-dimensional character that needs saving. I listed Cortana, Elena, Madison from Heavy Rain. There's Lara Croft, Bayonetta, The Boss, Gravity Rush... These are just ones I'm plucking from thin air.

    I honestly don't think women are discriminated against in games, at least no more than they are in film. And I don't understand the focus on games.

    Edited by CosmicFuzz at 08:45:01 10-03-2013

    Looking for a new gaming podcast to listen to? LOOK NO FURTHER!

  • CosmicFuzz 10 Mar 2013 08:37:23 23,189 posts
    Seen 54 minutes ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    Nanocrystal wrote:

    And i disagree that "associating actions with male and calling them masculine is fine and perfectly reasonable". Most political leaders have historically been male, but the reason for this is that women have been held back in various ways. It's therefore totally unfair, untrue and inappropriate to refer to leadership as a masculine trait. Stereotypes are almost never acceptable.
    I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with labelling actions as "masculine" or "feminine". That's the reason the words exist.

    And I'm still confused, what's your stance? Do you believe women are discriminated in video games? Do you want them to lead more action roles? Because video games are mostly action games, the diversity of story that film and TV and books allow isn't here in games.

    Looking for a new gaming podcast to listen to? LOOK NO FURTHER!

  • King_Edward 10 Mar 2013 08:47:03 11,454 posts
    Seen 4 days ago
    Registered 4 years ago
    CosmicFuzz wrote:

    And Terminator? In T1 she is LITERALLY a damsel in distress.
    She's not really. It's set up that way, but she contributes to her own survival, and in the end is the one that actually succeeds.
  • CosmicFuzz 10 Mar 2013 09:01:05 23,189 posts
    Seen 54 minutes ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    King_Edward wrote:
    CosmicFuzz wrote:

    And Terminator? In T1 she is LITERALLY a damsel in distress.
    She's not really. It's set up that way, but she contributes to her own survival, and in the end is the one that actually succeeds.
    Fine, but she still plays second fiddle to her male costars.

    All I'm saying is that when you think of Terminator, you think of Arnie.

    Edited by CosmicFuzz at 09:02:23 10-03-2013

    Looking for a new gaming podcast to listen to? LOOK NO FURTHER!

  • QotSAfan 10 Mar 2013 14:46:19 1,654 posts
    Seen 8 minutes ago
    Registered 7 years ago
    CosmicFuzz wrote:
    King_Edward wrote:
    CosmicFuzz wrote:

    And Terminator? In T1 she is LITERALLY a damsel in distress.
    She's not really. It's set up that way, but she contributes to her own survival, and in the end is the one that actually succeeds.
    Fine, but she still plays second fiddle to her male costars.

    All I'm saying is that when you think of Terminator, you think of Arnie.
    That could be because the movie is named after him and he is in fact the main antagonist. Linda Hamilton is the main character of that movie and she is by no means a weak damsel in distress. She is emotional and even hysterical at first but that is more to do with the fact that her life is torn from underneath her by a killer robot assassin from the future. An event that Im sure would test every person bar the most paranoid of people.

    Anyway, this whole video series is a bit laughable. Trying to apply feminist theory to a medium whose stories are usually well lower in priority than a lot of the other parts of its art is a bit much. If characters are one dimensional, than that just reflects poorly on the author of the story rather than any supposable bias they may have against women as a whole. A better look would be if you play a game as a female character and the gameplay is altered to reflect a supposed limitation of the female form.
  • Page

    of 19 First / Last

Log in or register to reply