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  • kalel 28 Feb 2013 14:59:07 83,852 posts
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    elstoof wrote:
    Militant anything is equally as bad as the other but at least a militant theist believes he's helping in some way wether its true or not. A militant atheists agenda is purely to remove the comfort that many people gain from their faith. They're essentially sweetie snatchers.
    I'd rather have my sweeties snatched than my life.
  • nickthegun 28 Feb 2013 14:59:36 55,848 posts
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    elstoof wrote:
    Militant anything is equally as bad as the other but at least a militant theist believes he's helping in some way wether its true or not.
    A militant theists help quite often boils over to pickets, rallies and the odd murder. The kind of help society to could so without, to be honest.

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    He totally called it

  • ModishNouns 28 Feb 2013 14:59:48 4,633 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    Militant Christians, Mulsims, Scientologist, Cat Lovers.
    People who don't invert Y. Freaks.
  • SClaw 28 Feb 2013 15:00:16 826 posts
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    Adamical wrote:
    Does it not worry you that a person in a position of power strongly believes and willingly defends a story of unequivocal nonsense?
    That sort of statement always makes me chuckle.

    So I assume you believe the sun is bigger than the earth, right? And what scientific proof do you have of that - personally? Have you ever tested that belief, personally, or are simply going on knowledge provided to you by others? I thought so...

    That was a silly example off the top of my head, but for the majority of people empirically proving that basic fact is pretty much impossible. You just trust the science. It’s not so very different from faith when you strip it back.
  • kalel 28 Feb 2013 15:02:24 83,852 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    elstoof wrote:
    Militant anything is equally as bad as the other but at least a militant theist believes he's helping in some way wether its true or not. A militant atheists agenda is purely to remove the comfort that many people gain from their faith. They're essentially sweetie snatchers.
    I'd rather have my sweeties snatched than my life.
    Also I like the way you're going out your way to paint the evilest possible picture of an atheist (and still can't do any worse than stealing sweets), and yet happily paint mass-murdering fundamentalist theists as "trying to help".
  • Adamical 28 Feb 2013 15:03:08 307 posts
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    elstoof wrote:
    Adamical wrote:
    Does it not worry you that a person in a position of power strongly believes and willingly defends a story of unequivocal nonsense?
    Well no. The Queen believes it, does it worry you that she is the head of the commonwealth?
    I didn't know she believed, so a little, yes.

    I want the leaders of my country to be logical people, reliant upon research and empirical data when making decisions. I don't want someone who thinks making wishes to a magic man in the sky is of genuine help in any situation.

    If her faith never influences her decisions then great (not sure why she believes if that's the case, but whatever). Still, if I had the choice between a theist and an atheist, I think I'd prefer the atheist.
  • MetalDog 28 Feb 2013 15:03:48 23,706 posts
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    I don't think many murders have been committed for pure single reasons, there's always power, land, revenge, crazy or money involved in there somewhere.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • SClaw 28 Feb 2013 15:04:01 826 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    elstoof wrote:
    Militant anything is equally as bad as the other but at least a militant theist believes he's helping in some way wether its true or not. A militant atheists agenda is purely to remove the comfort that many people gain from their faith. They're essentially sweetie snatchers.
    I'd rather have my sweeties snatched than my life.
    Also I like the way you're going out your way to paint the evilest possible picture of an atheist (and still can't do any worse than stealing sweets), and yet happily paint mass-murdering fundamentalist theists as "trying to help".
    Not that I completely disagree, but most "religious" conflicts in history have actually been about money, politics and simple power. The religion part just made for a good excuse.
  • kalel 28 Feb 2013 15:04:30 83,852 posts
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    There have btw been murders committed in the name of atheism (generally by isolated lunatics), but going up against theists and the numbers are crazily imbalanced.

    Believing in something is much more likely to turn you into a dangerous loon than believing in nothing is.
  • nickthegun 28 Feb 2013 15:06:02 55,848 posts
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    MetalDog wrote:
    I don't think many murders have been committed for pure single reasons, there's always power, land, revenge, crazy or money involved in there somewhere.
    Yeah, not so much. Im fairly sure people dont bomb abortion clinics because they want to move into the clinic.

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    He totally called it

  • MetalDog 28 Feb 2013 15:09:10 23,706 posts
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    Well, I could be wrong, but I'm pretty convinced that if those folks weren't bombing abortion clinics 'for God' they'd be bombing research institutes 'for animal rights' or somesuch.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • kalel 28 Feb 2013 15:10:31 83,852 posts
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    "Crazy" is the ultimate get out of jail card in this discussion. Fair enough, you can call anyone that believes murdering a heathen gets them a bunch of virgins in the afterlife crazy, but then where do you draw the line between simply having faith and being crazy? Isn't it just the extreme end of the same scale?

    Doesn't matter anyway. Again, those without faith are far less likely to do this sort of things. You don't murder in the name of not believing in something.
  • Adamical 28 Feb 2013 15:13:03 307 posts
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    SClaw wrote:
    Adamical wrote:
    Does it not worry you that a person in a position of power strongly believes and willingly defends a story of unequivocal nonsense?
    That sort of statement always makes me chuckle.

    So I assume you believe the sun is bigger than the earth, right? And what scientific proof do you have of that - personally? Have you ever tested that belief, personally, or are simply going on knowledge provided to you by others? I thought so...

    That was a silly example off the top of my head, but for the majority of people empirically proving that basic fact is pretty much impossible. You just trust the science. It’s not so very different from faith when you strip it back.
    Do you know why I trust science over religion? Because science freely admits when it's wrong and changes in accordance with new findings. Science has nothing to gain from lying to me, whereas if, heaven forbid, religion were to be revealed as bullshit (I mean, more than now), they'd lose billions!
  • SClaw 28 Feb 2013 15:13:53 826 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    "Crazy" is the ultimate get out of jail card in this discussion. Fair enough, you can call anyone that believes murdering a heathen gets them a bunch of virgins in the afterlife crazy, but then where do you draw the line between simply having faith and being crazy? Isn't it just the extreme end of the same scale?

    Doesn't matter anyway. Again, those without faith are far less likely to do this sort of things. You don't murder in the name of not believing in something.
    Er... Ted Kaczynski (Unibomber), off the top of my head?
  • MetalDog 28 Feb 2013 15:18:02 23,706 posts
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    No, I'm not plumping for 'crazy' for those guys. Crazy for me is serious chemical imbalance and hallucinations type territory.

    I think some people just gravitate towards causes that have active violence in them and some people are more prone to committing violence out of fear. Talking about the folk who don't need to have been bombed to fuck and seen their family murdered before they get stabby - talking about the ones in an otherwise safe, sane environment that end up extremists.

    Atheism isn't believing in nothing - you believe there is no deity. Militant atheism seems to be a sliding scale of believing that religion should be eradicated. That is a belief which could lead to violence once it gets in the wrong people's heads.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • elstoof 28 Feb 2013 15:18:04 6,138 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    elstoof wrote:
    Militant anything is equally as bad as the other but at least a militant theist believes he's helping in some way wether its true or not. A militant atheists agenda is purely to remove the comfort that many people gain from their faith. They're essentially sweetie snatchers.
    I'd rather have my sweeties snatched than my life.
    Also I like the way you're going out your way to paint the evilest possible picture of an atheist (and still can't do any worse than stealing sweets), and yet happily paint mass-murdering fundamentalist theists as "trying to help".
    Well I've said in other threads that I don't hold the religion accountable for the actions of mass murdering fundamentalists, perhaps that's why it looks as though I'm favouring one side over the other. In any case, I thought we were discussing militant a/theists trying to enforce their beliefs or lack of, rather than the extreme lengths that people will go to in effort to achieve their goals.
  • kalel 28 Feb 2013 15:18:38 83,852 posts
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    SClaw wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    "Crazy" is the ultimate get out of jail card in this discussion. Fair enough, you can call anyone that believes murdering a heathen gets them a bunch of virgins in the afterlife crazy, but then where do you draw the line between simply having faith and being crazy? Isn't it just the extreme end of the same scale?

    Doesn't matter anyway. Again, those without faith are far less likely to do this sort of things. You don't murder in the name of not believing in something.
    Er... Ted Kaczynski (Unibomber), off the top of my head?
    No, he was anti-industrialist.

    But anyway, as I say, there has been the odd one.
  • SClaw 28 Feb 2013 15:18:58 826 posts
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    Adamical wrote:
    SClaw wrote:
    Adamical wrote:
    Does it not worry you that a person in a position of power strongly believes and willingly defends a story of unequivocal nonsense?
    That sort of statement always makes me chuckle.

    So I assume you believe the sun is bigger than the earth, right? And what scientific proof do you have of that - personally? Have you ever tested that belief, personally, or are simply going on knowledge provided to you by others? I thought so...

    That was a silly example off the top of my head, but for the majority of people empirically proving that basic fact is pretty much impossible. You just trust the science. It’s not so very different from faith when you strip it back.
    Do you know why I trust science over religion? Because science freely admits when it's wrong and changes in accordance with new findings. Science has nothing to gain from lying to me, whereas if, heaven forbid, religion were to be revealed as bullshit (I mean, more than now), they'd lose billions!
    Ahaha… ahaha… eh… no…

    Ask anyone working in research science whether they bullshit their figures sometimes and the resounding answer is yes. Suppression of false results, false positives and other unpleasant data is HUGE problem in published papers. The scientific journals are also pretty scandalous in their behaviour, because they hate publishing “negative” result papers and many, far too many, are driven by their connections to big companies (particularly in the medical fields). I mean… those big pharma companies would lose billions if they got bad press. But that’s another topic.

    You use the word religion as a catch-all phrase there. I must point that while, yes, many religions are like that… not all are the same. There are progressive faiths out there.
  • SClaw 28 Feb 2013 15:20:00 826 posts
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    @kalel And a... heh... very militant atheist.
  • elstoof 28 Feb 2013 15:23:02 6,138 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Believing in something is much more likely to turn you into a dangerous loon than believing in nothing is.
    This is something I don't agree with really, we have no way of knowing where society would be without religion. Perhaps if we could prove tomorrow that god absolutely didn't exist, then would we see a lot more people just taking what they want from those more vulnerable? Why not? There's not going to be any come backs or judgement. Just enjoy the time you have on earth and fuck everyone else over.
  • kalel 28 Feb 2013 15:23:04 83,852 posts
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    MetalDog wrote:
    Atheism isn't believing in nothing - you believe there is no deity. Militant atheism seems to be a sliding scale of believing that religion should be eradicated. That is a belief which could lead to violence once it gets in the wrong people's heads.
    Saying it "could" is easy enough. Not sure there is evidence to support that.

    I do agree that miltant atheists believe in eradicating religion, but my feeling is that it's far less likely to lead to violence than fundamentalist theism. An atheist iss far less likely to be able to rationalise the taking of a life than a theist.
  • kalel 28 Feb 2013 15:23:54 83,852 posts
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    SClaw wrote:
    @kalel And a... heh... very militant atheist.
    Yes but that wasn't his motivation for what he did, that's the point.
  • kalel 28 Feb 2013 15:26:23 83,852 posts
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    elstoof wrote:
    Well I've said in other threads that I don't hold the religion accountable for the actions of mass murdering fundamentalists, perhaps that's why it looks as though I'm favouring one side over the other.
    Yes, that does quite conveniently sidestep the debate.


    In any case, I thought we were discussing militant a/theists trying to enforce their beliefs or lack of, rather than the extreme lengths that people will go to in effort to achieve their goals.

    You were the one who said there was nothing worse than a militant atheist. I suppose you have the right to define what you mean by that, but personally I'd still take my chances with a militant atheist over a militant theist any day of the week.
  • MetalDog 28 Feb 2013 15:27:43 23,706 posts
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    Well, it depends how much you think the actions of Stalin, Mao, current Chinese regime, Burma guys, etc. is motivated by the religion eradication factor, rather than the power/land/money things, perhaps.

    I really don't believe a single factor is enough to make anyone but the seriously unbalanced commit murder. One thing militant atheism has protecting it from this sort of deadly motive mix at the moment is the lack of a big, organised cohesive 'doctrine', but there are definitely signs that is changing, so I hope you're right, else I might end up hanging off a lamppost one day =)

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • nickthegun 28 Feb 2013 15:28:03 55,848 posts
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    MetalDog wrote:
    Well, I could be wrong, but I'm pretty convinced that if those folks weren't bombing abortion clinics 'for God' they'd be bombing research institutes 'for animal rights' or somesuch.
    I think youre wrong on that one, to be honest.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    He totally called it

  • SClaw 28 Feb 2013 15:30:09 826 posts
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    I think we can all agree that, for whatever reason, humans are basically tossers.

    So back to badmouthing Scientology tossers?
  • MetalDog 28 Feb 2013 15:30:43 23,706 posts
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    Aye, fair enough.

    Don't take the stress tests, kids.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • kalel 28 Feb 2013 15:31:52 83,852 posts
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    MetalDog wrote:
    One thing militant atheism has protecting it from this sort of deadly motive mix at the moment is the lack of a big, organised cohesive 'doctrine', but there are definitely signs that is changing, so I hope you're right, else I might end up hanging off a lamppost one day =)
    At least you have the next life to look forward to :)

    I don't really see how atheism can ever have organised cohesive doctrine though. At that point it effectively becomes a theism no? Atheism is not a belief system, it merely outlines what you definitely don't believe in, not what you do.
  • nickthegun 28 Feb 2013 15:32:45 55,848 posts
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    Ive taken the tests when I used to live in birmingham. they have quite a big (visible, at least) presence there and are always hanging around with a little gazebo, trying to tell people they are depressed.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    He totally called it

  • SClaw 28 Feb 2013 15:33:32 826 posts
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    They must be great salesmen, if nothing else, because I've done street surveys in the past and let me tell you - people don't want to even look at you when you jump them in the street. You can feel the hate in them. I can't imagine how hard it is to actually con them into one of those tests.
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