The Islam Thread. Page 3

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  • Mola_Ram 17 Feb 2013 11:21:33 7,633 posts
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    If you outright rejected anyone who believed something you thought to be utter nonsense... well, there wouldn't be very many people left to talk to.

    Religion isn't going away anytime soon. You don't have to like it, but it's probably best if you learn to live with it.

    Edited by Mola_Ram at 11:27:25 17-02-2013
  • b0rk 17 Feb 2013 11:26:19 2,865 posts
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    RedSparrows wrote:
    B0rked_Gamer wrote:
    MrTomFTW wrote:
    B0rked_Gamer wrote:
    But they are absolutely wrong.
    And how is that your problem? Or Dawkin's problem. It's a bigger version of going up to people playing Rock Band and going "You're not really playing that, STOP HAVING FUN".

    So what if you know it isn't real, they're happy with it.
    It really isn't the same as enjoying Rock Band. Rock Band is real for one thing. I don't understand this it isn't real but they're happy with it argument. Why should I or indeed anyone be happy with so many people believing in utter nonsense?
    It is real for them. Why are you allowed to tell them it's not?i, with respect, doubt you are entirely rational about all aspects of life

    Edited by RedSparrows at 11:19:05 17-02-2013
    Why am I allowed? Why not? Just to be clear I don't go around asking people if they're religious and then tear then down but if they make a point of bringing up religion I give my opinion on the subject. :)
  • Inertia 17 Feb 2013 11:30:04 677 posts
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    The problem with opinions is people confuse them with actually showing what is erroneous with the other person's opinion when really they have no content and demonstrate no error to refute anything except being an opposite and equal opinion.
  • riceNpea 17 Feb 2013 11:30:56 592 posts
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    religion is a framework that reminds people everyday to behave with good grace and strive towards the betterment of themselves and others.

    people know the difference between being good and evil and we don't need religion to explain those concepts to us but what religion does provide is a mechanism to remind us on a daily basis that we should aspire to be congenial. left to our own devices, without a constant nudge in the right direction be it via religion or some other form of overawing rule set, some people moral compass over time could go askew.

    of course that's not to say a secular society is doomed to fail in the long run but i think it's important to have a regular reminder of some form to bolster our own innate yet fallible disposition to be good people.
  • PhoenixFlames 17 Feb 2013 11:39:56 9,179 posts
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    I couldn't listen to more than 10 seconds of that twat Muslim on the video.

    PSN - phoenix1flames

  • Fake_Blood 17 Feb 2013 11:54:49 4,275 posts
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    Ah well, Islam is a problem that will solve itself.
  • Rusty_M 17 Feb 2013 12:13:13 4,757 posts
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    Islam is no more of a problem than Buddhism or Christianity or Atheism. It's the people who do messed up shit in the name of their beliefs that bother me. I can't stand when people try to tell others what to believe, saying little more than "because I'm right, and your belief system is bollocks".

    The world is going mad. Me? I'm doing fine.

  • Deleted user 17 February 2013 12:19:40
    riceNpea wrote:
    religion is a framework that reminds people everyday to behave with good grace and strive towards the betterment of themselves and others.

    people know the difference between being good and evil and we don't need religion to explain those concepts to us but what religion does provide is a mechanism to remind us on a daily basis that we should aspire to be congenial. left to our own devices, without a constant nudge in the right direction be it via religion or some other form of overawing rule set, some people moral compass over time could go askew.

    of course that's not to say a secular society is doomed to fail in the long run but i think it's important to have a regular reminder of some form to bolster our own innate yet fallible disposition to be good people.
    In that context it doesn't really matter if it's real or not.
  • Inertia 17 Feb 2013 12:24:27 677 posts
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    As William James said the origin is irrelevant it's the outcomes or effects that matter and these differ from the same source in different people. One might read the Koran and build a school to help disadvantaged kids another may bomb a school and disadvantage the kids. Same text completely different outcome. It's a synergy of text and character that creates these outcomes. So it comes down to hermeneutics and degrees of anger and resentment. Kind Muslims are very unlikely to bomb someone but angry ones might and they are both guided by the same text.
  • riceNpea 17 Feb 2013 12:28:32 592 posts
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    bitch_tits_zero_nine wrote:
    riceNpea wrote:
    religion is a framework that reminds people everyday to behave with good grace and strive towards the betterment of themselves and others.

    people know the difference between being good and evil and we don't need religion to explain those concepts to us but what religion does provide is a mechanism to remind us on a daily basis that we should aspire to be congenial. left to our own devices, without a constant nudge in the right direction be it via religion or some other form of overawing rule set, some people moral compass over time could go askew.

    of course that's not to say a secular society is doomed to fail in the long run but i think it's important to have a regular reminder of some form to bolster our own innate yet fallible disposition to be good people.
    In that context it doesn't really matter if it's real or not.
    you're absolutely spot on.
  • Rusty_M 17 Feb 2013 12:31:03 4,757 posts
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    @Inertia
    Although I think that those who would bomb a school would be likely to find some other way to support their actions/violent tendencies if it weren't for the Koran.

    The world is going mad. Me? I'm doing fine.

  • Inertia 17 Feb 2013 12:37:41 677 posts
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    @Rusty_M

    That's the nature of humans. From gangs and their creeds to Irish Republicanism. Angry people try and find a narrative or more bluntly a justification for killing someone else. They can feel purpose in their life by having strong opinions, they can get respect within their community by violence, they feel more alive and this, unfortunately, is why it's pretty much unstoppable even if you banned religion because it is just one motive for murder. Humans are inventive and can distort almost anything as an outlet for their emotions, good or bad.
  • riceNpea 17 Feb 2013 12:41:15 592 posts
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    Rusty_M wrote:
    @Inertia
    Although I think that those who would bomb a school would be likely to find some other way to support their actions/violent tendencies if it weren't for the Koran.
    do you think that people are inherently violent and use religion as an outlet?

    or are people conditioned to the point of extremism where their morality is readjusted to accept violent acts as a necessary means of action against inferred danger?
  • Deleted user 17 February 2013 13:00:06
    Wether we like it or not Islam as a cultural and political entity is here to stay, so the only workable solution with the aim of a cohesive multi cultural society is going to have to be inclusive of it as a code of ethics.
  • Khanivor 17 Feb 2013 13:41:15 40,935 posts
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    If I were to believe that both 2 plus 2 equals five and that I should give a pound to the poor everyday would none of you feel like correcting me on the first point?
  • Mola_Ram 17 Feb 2013 13:45:15 7,633 posts
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    If it doesn't affect me, no.
  • Inertia 17 Feb 2013 13:45:30 677 posts
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    @Khanivor

    If you were my accountant yes on both counts.
  • phAge 17 Feb 2013 13:52:25 24,386 posts
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    @Khanivor

    Say I were to propose a bet to you, whereupon we flipped a coin and if I won you'd have to give me 10 quid. What would then be the *minimum* prize you would demand if *you* won, in order to enter the bet?
  • disusedgenius 17 Feb 2013 13:56:35 5,390 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    If I were to believe that both 2 plus 2 equals five and that I should give a pound to the poor everyday would none of you feel like correcting me on the first point?
    http://xkcd.com/263/
  • Deleted user 17 February 2013 13:56:38
    EuroStalker wrote:
    Islam is a great religion followed by a significant number of twisted scum. Unfortunate but true.

    Every religion/cult goes through a great period and bad period. This is Islam's bad period where a lack of ideas, debate and thinking has left a big hole for scums in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia and most countries with large Muslim populations to exploit.

    There was a time when Muslims were at the forefront of sciences, technology and knowledge. Not any more. Now we have m*therf*ckers in Iran and Saudi dictating twisted doctrine to us via their proxies otherwise known as Imams.

    You can propagate that anti-US and anti-Israel nonsense in Mosques, but doesn't mean it's true.
    Being Muslim or not doesn't change if you are good at science or innovation. Places like Iran have top scientists.

    For science and innovation tge world ranking is 1. Finland 2. Japan 3. USA. 4. Israel 5. China.

    No pattern of religious belief there.
  • Inertia 17 Feb 2013 13:59:58 677 posts
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    The US is a notoriously atheistic country!!
  • Daryoon 17 Feb 2013 14:01:45 4,640 posts
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    I look forward to seeing the look on Dawkins' face when reality is revealed to be little more than a computer simulation, and everything he believes in turns out to be just as fake as everything else.

    "In all seriousness", though, he not only comes across as a smug cunt, but a smug cunt with severe insecurities who NEEDS to be RIGHT. I've found his most ardent supporters to be equally insecure. Seems to me it's less about what's best for humanity, more about some brattish need to be on the "winning" side.
  • b0rk 17 Feb 2013 14:07:27 2,865 posts
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    Daryoon wrote:
    I look forward to seeing the look on Dawkins' face when reality is revealed to be little more than a computer simulation, and everything he believes in turns out to be just as fake as everything else.

    "In all seriousness", though, he not only comes across as a smug cunt, but a smug cunt with severe insecurities who NEEDS to be RIGHT. I've found his most ardent supporters to be equally insecure. Seems to me it's less about what's best for humanity, more about some brattish need to be on the "winning" side.
    You couldn't be more wrong. I suggest you watch or read more Dawkins.
  • disusedgenius 17 Feb 2013 14:11:20 5,390 posts
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    God (heh), the last thing you want top recommend to someone who finds Dawkins grating is one of his books. At the end of the day, the guy is trying to give someone on the edge of atheism the confidence to go with it - if you go in thinking the guy's an odious twat then it'll only serve to confirm it.
  • Deleted user 17 February 2013 14:11:26
    'comes across'.

    Pretty much my interpretation of the guy. I sure as shit know that I don't want to watch more of him.

    He seems to wear superiority like a badge.
  • faux-C 17 Feb 2013 14:24:25 9,439 posts
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    Terry Eagleton on Dawkins

    Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology. Card-carrying rationalists like Dawkins, who is the nearest thing to a professional atheist we have had since Bertrand Russell, are in one sense the least well-equipped to understand what they castigate, since they donít believe there is anything there to be understood, or at least anything worth understanding. This is why they invariably come up with vulgar caricatures of religious faith that would make a first-year theology student wince. The more they detest religion, the more ill-informed their criticisms of it tend to be. If they were asked to pass judgment on phenomenology or the geopolitics of South Asia, they would no doubt bone up on the question as assiduously as they could. When it comes to theology, however, any shoddy old travesty will pass muster. These days, theology is the queen of the sciences in a rather less august sense of the word than in its medieval heyday.
  • MrTomFTW Moderator 17 Feb 2013 14:29:39 38,612 posts
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    Pepsipop wrote:
    For science and innovation tge world ranking is 1. Finland 2. Japan 3. USA. 4. Israel 5. China.

    Follow me on Twitter: @MrTom
    Voted by the community "Best mod" 2011, 2012 and 2013.

  • Daryoon 17 Feb 2013 14:53:51 4,640 posts
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    B0rked_Gamer wrote:You couldn't be more wrong. I suggest you watch or read more Dawkins.
    I love it when people say this. They always do. Because I clearly haven't read enough Dawkins to make a reasoned judgement. (They also presume I must be a Catholic, because how can anyone possibly support freedom of faith unless they're one of those messed up religious types? And since I'm white, I'm obviously not Muslim. Or something.)

    It's especially hilarious as my experience of his more vocal followers is that they haven't bothered to actually read into or study religion, outside of what the Good Book (aka the God Delusion) tells them about it.
  • markyHD 17 Feb 2013 14:56:34 455 posts
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