The Islam Thread. Page 12

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  • Lukus 3 Mar 2013 21:49:43 19,114 posts
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    I'M A MUSLIM ME

    Paintings & Photographs

  • RedSparrows 3 Mar 2013 22:20:19 22,736 posts
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    Graveland wrote:
    senso-ji wrote:
    It's a shame you don't live in 1930s Germany, Graveland. Der Stumer would have loved your insightful views on Islam.
    Probably, hence the Nazis allied with the Muslims. The only non-'Aryan' SS unit was a Muslim SS unit. Himmler was impressed by the powers of indoctrination that Islam held over its followers.

    Edit.
    *Actually, there were several other non-'Aryan' SS units, specifically in Latvia etc. The first non-Germanic SS division was Muslim.
    The SS also 'allied' itself with Ukrainians, Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians, Poles, Russians, et al - whatever suited their purposes.

    'The Muslims' is about as helpful as saying 'Anders Brevik was Norwegian'. Of course there are Muslims who are detestable people. There were Brits who thought Hitler was a good egg, even during the war. Germany is a 'Christian' nation. Yadda yadda yadda. That's hardly exclusive, so why are you carrying on with this schtick?

    Edited by RedSparrows at 22:23:25 03-03-2013
  • Deleted user 3 March 2013 23:55:13
    Wtf the Muslim world had satisfaction when the twin towers fell? You see some people happy on sky news and that is the Muslim world? So if I see a Christian man happy that a village in Pakistan was bombed by the Americans that makes the Christian world satisfied?

    If the world thought like you it would be a horrible place to live.
  • Deleted user 3 March 2013 23:58:47
    I still can't beliebe I just read that. The people of Palestine suffer daily because of Israel and the unites states, the civilians die every day and nothing is done. The few people you saw celebrate were wrong to do so but to them it was joy at the Americans suffering. They see the American public just as culpable as the government by their inaction.
  • RedSparrows 4 Mar 2013 00:00:20 22,736 posts
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    Graveland wrote:
    RedSparrows wrote:
    Graveland wrote:
    senso-ji wrote:
    It's a shame you don't live in 1930s Germany, Graveland. Der Stumer would have loved your insightful views on Islam.
    Probably, hence the Nazis allied with the Muslims. The only non-'Aryan' SS unit was a Muslim SS unit. Himmler was impressed by the powers of indoctrination that Islam held over its followers.

    Edit.
    *Actually, there were several other non-'Aryan' SS units, specifically in Latvia etc. The first non-Germanic SS division was Muslim.
    The SS also 'allied' itself with Ukrainians, Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians, Poles, Russians, et al - whatever suited their purposes.

    'The Muslims' is about as helpful as saying 'Anders Brevik was Norwegian'. Of course there are Muslims who are detestable people. There were Brits who thought Hitler was a good egg, even during the war. Germany is a 'Christian' nation. Yadda yadda yadda. That's hardly exclusive, so why are you carrying on with this schtick?
    I didn't bring up this point, I merely qualified the other poster's witticism.

    Glossing over the overwhelming sociopathic ethos of Islam fools nobody. It's interesting that you mention Breivik - a man whose philosophy and actions revulsed all decent individuals. When those two planes flew into the Twin Towers a sense of satisfaction rippled across the Muslim world. There were people dancing in the streets of Palestine and celebrating. Are all Muslims bad people? Absolutely not. I've worked with, and made friendships with, some terrific Muslims. Islam's history is a fascinating one, it's merged with many rich cultures across the world and can boast some of the finest thinkers amongst its generations of followers.

    But is it compatible with secular Western society? No, it is not. I don't want my daughter to grow up in a culture where her sole worth is deemed as property owned by a man. Where her word in court is considered half that of a man. Where it is legal for her husband to strike her for "rebellion". Is the West perfect? Far from it. But at least we have the freedom to constantly evolve and improve as a culture.
    And now you appear far more reasonable, hurrah.

    (although, triumphalism at the damaging of an enemy is most certainly not alien to Britain, or the USA, etc)

    Also, I don't buy this, essentially, 'clash of civilisations' idea. It presupposes that things are much more fixed than they necessarily are. Nor is 'Western' society monolithic, as I am sure you'll agree.

    Edited by RedSparrows at 00:04:41 04-03-2013
  • speedofthepuma 4 Mar 2013 00:00:55 13,299 posts
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    @Pepsipop So was he right or wrong? You seem to state there wasn't a "ripple", and then justify the ripple.

    Edited by speedofthepuma at 00:01:32 04-03-2013

    I lurk. If I've spoken to you, I'm either impassioned, or drunk.

  • RobTheBuilder 4 Mar 2013 00:00:58 6,521 posts
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    @Pepsipop The Muslims who celebrated the towers falling are no more representative of the Muslim world than the KKK are of Christian society.
  • Deleted user 4 March 2013 00:04:37
    speedofthepuma wrote:
    @Pepsipop So was he right or wrong? You seem to state there wasn't a "ripple", and then justify the ripple.
    One hundred people in Palestine wasn't a ripple. Also that had little to do with religion, it was anti USA.
  • RedSparrows 4 Mar 2013 00:05:38 22,736 posts
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    BigBoobsFan wrote:
    Pepsipop wrote:
    Wtf the Muslim world had satisfaction when the twin towers fell? You see some people happy on sky news and that is the Muslim world? So if I see a Christian man happy that a village in Pakistan was bombed by the Americans that makes the Christian world satisfied?

    If the world thought like you it would be a horrible place to live.
    The differemce is that Americans don't bomb people for Christianity. Tge twin towers were attacked in the name of islam. If they did it for anotger roeasonand just haopened to be muslim pilots then islam wouldn't be to blame.
    They still bomb people for what they think ks right.
  • RedSparrows 4 Mar 2013 00:08:17 22,736 posts
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    (and some love them for it, when others see certain bombings as heinous. But I don't want to draw too close a parallel whilst typing on my phone...)
  • Lukus 4 Mar 2013 00:12:28 19,114 posts
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    Paintings & Photographs

  • Lukus 4 Mar 2013 00:12:57 19,114 posts
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    Seems unlikely Muslims sent any ripples anywhere...

    Paintings & Photographs

  • RobTheBuilder 4 Mar 2013 00:41:04 6,521 posts
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    @RedSparrows Those who bombed the twin towers used Islam as a crutch for their own anger and hatreds. Just like (for example) Westboro Baptist Church use Christianity as a proxy for their own hatred, and just how America uses 'democracy' as it's motives despite in practice overthrowing a great many democracies for dictators when they feel like it.
  • SuperCoolEskimo 4 Mar 2013 00:52:26 9,830 posts
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    The stuff about Islam being a violent religion is wrong - iirc violence is only allowed if you are being physically persecuted and even then it's a last resort.

    The biggest annoyance I have is when culture and religion get confused. For example, iirc it doesn't say anywhere in Islamic teaching that women have to be covered head to toe, yet certain Muslim cultures choose to oppress women in this way and it's seen as an Islamic thing by people.

    Fwiw the Muslims were the first to give women the vote, rights to an education, to work and own property, the right to divorce, etc. If anything, the perception of Islam's view on women is distinctly the opposite to what the religion teaches, simply because some Muslim cultures have treated women so 'unIslamically' for so long.
  • RobTheBuilder 4 Mar 2013 00:54:22 6,521 posts
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    @SuperCoolEskimo Nicely put.
  • dufftownallan 4 Mar 2013 02:07:10 4,725 posts
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    BigBoobsFan wrote:
    I think these atheists who feel the need to stop everyone being religious "because they're wrong" are just as mental as the religious idiots. Why not just keep away from them and live around people you can relate to? As long as muslims aren't affecting me i don't care what they do.
    because most of us feel that religion has a negative bearing on the world around us.

    you can't "keep away from them", any more than you can keep away from, say - football. lots of people don't like football yet are subjected to it on their tellies, in their newspapers, down the pub, it creeps into societal norms like some sort of sinister virus. you could say that football should be banned, gotten rid of, it provides no real service aside from - perhaps - entertainment, but people would find something else to do on a saturday afternoon if football didn't exist. you could say that those who follow football are exploited, indoctrinated, kept in check with the promise of glories, given a way to live vicariously through something ultimately meaningless and trivial. you could say that many have made themselves very comfortable indeed through football, using the joy that football undeniably gives millions - if not billions - to line their pockets and allow their peers, friends and colleagues to do the same with little regard to giving much back to those at the lower echelons of the game. this perhaps seems unfair to some, that the elite within football should be elevated to rewards of vast fortune and power for something that - to those who don't "understand" or dare to question - seems corrupt, bloated, self serving.

    not me though, i fucking LOVE football me...
  • Tonka 4 Mar 2013 07:35:12 20,438 posts
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    The Reason I'm not worried
    by Tonka

    Here's the thing. If you are scared of fundamental islamists taking over your country and enforcing their private version of sharia upon you there really is nothing you can do.

    Look at what the romans did to christians back in the day. fed them to the lions. Look at what the norse did to christians, chopped their heads off.

    If such extreme measures didn't matter then what will? Nothing, right? Right.

    Religion is a meme. You cannot stop it by taking lives. You need to offer up a better alternative.

    Now look at where extreme islamist is spreading and it isn't any nice places where they've got their shit in order. The best alternative to fighting this fundamental dystopia that a lot of people like to label "Islam" is together your shit together and build a better alternative. Which really shouldn't be that hard if you look at public hanging videos from Afghanistan.

    The bigger problem is that power hungry white men sieze on this opportunity to create pseudo-fascist right wing parties all over europe. Selling the false idea that muslim immigrants are the root of all evil.

    As soon as we run out of oil none of this will matter.

    If you can read this you really need to fiddle with your forum settings.

  • Rodney 4 Mar 2013 07:59:11 1,900 posts
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    RobTheBuilder wrote:
    @RedSparrows Those who bombed the twin towers used Islam as a crutch for their own anger and hatreds. Just like (for example) Westboro Baptist Church use Christianity as a proxy for their own hatred, and just how America uses 'democracy' as it's motives despite in practice overthrowing a great many democracies for dictators when they feel like it.
    How could you know their motivations either way? It's not as black and white as that. There were probably multiple causes (Western foriegn policy, Israel, poverty, sexual repression etc) but to deny Islam could have had any influence on them, when they admit themselves that their actions are in the name of Allah, is fatuous.
  • Rodney 4 Mar 2013 08:11:37 1,900 posts
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    SuperCoolEskimo wrote:
    The stuff about Islam being a violent religion is wrong - iirc violence is only allowed if you are being physically persecuted and even then it's a last resort.

    The biggest annoyance I have is when culture and religion get confused. For example, iirc it doesn't say anywhere in Islamic teaching that women have to be covered head to toe, yet certain Muslim cultures choose to oppress women in this way and it's seen as an Islamic thing by people.

    Fwiw the Muslims were the first to give women the vote, rights to an education, to work and own property, the right to divorce, etc. If anything, the perception of Islam's view on women is distinctly the opposite to what the religion teaches, simply because some Muslim cultures have treated women so 'unIslamically' for so long.
    I don'r think it as black and white as this either. The Koran and hadiths are, like many ancient texts, ambiguous. You can find both beauty and equality in them and hatred, inequality and misogyny. To argue that Islam is inherently one way or the other is myopic (there are plenty of Islamic liberals) but it is a fact that Islam can, and often does, lend itself well to sexist ideologies and cultures (testomony of one man is equal to two women and all that).

    I just wish liberal Muslims had more of a voice and werent drowned out by the shouty fanatics
  • Rodney 4 Mar 2013 08:22:03 1,900 posts
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    Tonka wrote:
    The Reason I'm not worried
    by Tonka

    Here's the thing. If you are scared of fundamental islamists taking over your country and enforcing their private version of sharia upon you there really is nothing you can do.

    Look at what the romans did to christians back in the day. fed them to the lions. Look at what the norse did to christians, chopped their heads off.

    If such extreme measures didn't matter then what will? Nothing, right? Right.

    Religion is a meme. You cannot stop it by taking lives. You need to offer up a better alternative.

    Now look at where extreme islamist is spreading and it isn't any nice places where they've got their shit in order. The best alternative to fighting this fundamental dystopia that a lot of people like to label "Islam" is together your shit together and build a better alternative. Which really shouldn't be that hard if you look at public hanging videos from Afghanistan.

    The bigger problem is that power hungry white men sieze on this opportunity to create pseudo-fascist right wing parties all over europe. Selling the false idea that muslim immigrants are the root of all evil.

    As soon as we run out of oil none of this will matter.
    Totally agree. Any repression, persecution or vilification of Muslims (Daily Mail/Express) just fuels Islamism and shows Western liberal societies and cultures as decadent and hypocritical.

    I have many Iranian friends (both Muslim and Bahai) and they all hate Iranian theocracy but they also get a pissed off with all the fucking scare mongering in the West and do feel marginalised by it. I dont think this is a road we, as a society, should be going down
  • Dangerous_Dan 4 Mar 2013 08:23:08 2,380 posts
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    Tonka wrote:
    The Reason I'm not worried
    by Tonka

    Here's the thing. If you are scared of fundamental islamists taking over your country and enforcing their private version of sharia upon you there really is nothing you can do.
    Yes there is, a society doesn't have to be tolerant - but this is unthinkable because being less tolerant would be considered a step backwards. And there should only be progress is the mantra - a society can only become more tolerant, more open, there is no space in the box for the thought that there'd be negative effects for being more open and tolerant. This is the right path, the path forward. You can never be enough open and tolerant.


    Look at what the romans did to christians back in the day. fed them to the lions. Look at what the norse did to christians, chopped their heads off.

    If such extreme measures didn't matter then what will? Nothing, right? Right.
    The roman empire adopted christianity, it's a powerful meme when population density is increasing and an empire grows bigger and bigger.
    But it has negative effects as well. Certain things do not prosper within the christian meme (for example individual creativity). Look at medieval times - the whole of Europe was united under the christian banner which made it possible to withstand an islamic invasion.



    Religion is a meme. You cannot stop it by taking lives. You need to offer up a better alternative.
    Yes, you can stop a meme by force. Look at various sects which got busted by forceful intervention. Look at Catharism, well they can't tell you their story because they all lost their tongue.


    Now look at where extreme islamist is spreading and it isn't any nice places where they've got their shit in order. The best alternative to fighting this fundamental dystopia that a lot of people like to label "Islam" is together your shit together and build a better alternative. Which really shouldn't be that hard if you look at public hanging videos from Afghanistan.

    The bigger problem is that power hungry white men sieze on this opportunity to create pseudo-fascist right wing parties all over europe. Selling the false idea that muslim immigrants are the root of all evil.
    Power hungry white men - Aha. Well now that this is clear - on what fertile grounds are they planting their seeds? On the tabula rase generation, the nil people - the people who are just clay with a nice ego which you can manipulate. They eat up everything because they were trained to be molded. They were selected for that. One day they are open and tolerant, the next day they are fascist or communist or whatever totalitarism is your fancy - we will see how the "reasonable" people will fare when times get harsher...

    Funnily enough that's the subject which Nolan(the Batman dude) dealt with in his recent Batman movies.
  • Chopsen 4 Mar 2013 08:28:05 16,000 posts
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    Haha! So you're saying we should out the tongues of muslims in order to keep europe christian?
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