The Islam Thread. Page 7

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  • kalel 18 Feb 2013 11:38:36 87,180 posts
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    I think there's a huge difference for most (or at least many) between the broad theological, sociological and philosophical 'questions' that can and probably should be asked by everyone, and the 'answers' that the granular doctrine of organised religion provide.

    I see these things in quite separate terms, and yet people seem to justify the latter by claiming it's the same as the former. I don't think it is.
  • Dangerous_Dan 18 Feb 2013 11:46:31 2,380 posts
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    dufftownallan wrote:
    should it though red, should it...?
    I actually used to think like that md, and it was the slither of doubt about life the universe and everything (I have never discounted the possibility of something happening beyond this realm, I just think it's massively unlikely) that made me dismiss the notion.
    I totally agree that it's people who are the problem rather than religion itself, but religion and praying on the base fears of people make such control easier.
    It's always about control. The way people behave today, the morals we have are what made such a high population density possible. Christianity, islam, communism, capitalism, liberalism, are all about enabling bigger nations and empires and so forth. As a general rule, the bigger the society the more peaceful your society needs to be.
    The methods can differ but it's about controlling large populations.
    To control people you have to use their primal emotions. Fear is the root.

    Example: If you are a small clan in stoneage times it could be useful to have a few aggressive members in your tribe. In large societies with nature tamed and rival parties getting extinct, not so much. Calm is good now because it's a necessity.

    Did you people not learn anything from playing Civilization??

    Edited by Dangerous_Dan at 11:47:22 18-02-2013
  • RedSparrows 18 Feb 2013 11:52:49 22,351 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    I think there's a huge difference for most (or at least many) between the broad theological, sociological and philosophical 'questions' that can and probably should be asked by everyone, and the 'answers' that the granular doctrine of organised religion provide.

    I see these things in quite separate terms, and yet people seem to justify the latter by claiming it's the same as the former. I don't think it is.
    Yes. My issue comes when either the former is ignored (which does happen), or the latter's search for the former is dismissed outright.

    Edited by RedSparrows at 11:53:36 18-02-2013
  • RedSparrows 18 Feb 2013 11:53:21 22,351 posts
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    Dangerous_Dan wrote:


    Did you people not learn anything from playing Civilization??
    20% luxuries sorts everything.
  • dufftownallan 18 Feb 2013 12:09:02 4,725 posts
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    MetalDog wrote:
    dufftownallan wrote:
    I totally agree that it's people who are the problem rather than religion itself, but religion and praying on the base fears of people make such control easier.
    Easier than economic control? Or the fear of terrorism, or immigrants? There isn't a government out there that doesn't pull this shit - the banner under which they do it changes, but it's all about keeping them at the top in comfort and keeping the masses from lynching them, really, isn't it?

    Clashing ideologies are bad news no matter what those ideologies are. The whole capitalism vs communism thing almost got the whole planet nuked back to the stone age.

    We really need to fix ourselves as a species somehow... I think we're always going to be at each others throats for one reason or another until we do. No idea how, though.
    aye, I was going to make the point that economics seem to be replacing religion as a means of control, we're always going to be subjugated by the powers that be one way or another, and although if religion dies then something will take its place, I still feel like losing religion is a progressive move for mankind. perhaps even just as a way to remove the possibility of misunderstanding through an ever more connected world.

    red, i'm aware of dismissing the benefits of religion but I can't help but feel that overall it's had a negative impact on humanity. the fact that it's so widespread and practiced has never been in question, what i AM asking is would we collectively be better off without it?
  • Dangerous_Dan 18 Feb 2013 12:12:15 2,380 posts
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    RedSparrows wrote:
    Dangerous_Dan wrote:


    Did you people not learn anything from playing Civilization??
    20% luxuries sorts everything.
    Yes it does calm the people.
  • warlockuk 18 Feb 2013 12:13:34 19,151 posts
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    Probably would, yeah. Something else would fill the gap. People are still depressed 'n' junk even with religion. We'd probably be technologically further along than we are by a few hundred years and have made better fuel/food/air advances - but then medicine would've come along faster and people would already be living longer/breeding faster so... on paper we could actually be worse off vis-a-vis population and resources.

    I'm a grumpy bastard.

  • Dangerous_Dan 18 Feb 2013 12:22:27 2,380 posts
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    I don't know about the breeding faster - birth rate isn't that high in western countries. We gonna have to start some baby factories where we breed people. Then later we'll have to keep them on some anti-depressants to prevent suicide. But also some uppers to get their asses to work.

    No, I'm just kidding, it's gonna be great.
  • Daryoon 18 Feb 2013 12:38:18 4,622 posts
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    O brave new world, that has such people in it!
  • MetalDog 18 Feb 2013 12:45:24 23,697 posts
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    The desire to have everyone in the world stop being religious is pretty much the same as the desire to have everyone in the world be religious.

    Neither is going to happen and how far you're prepared to go to make that impossible desire a reality is going to determine your placement on the scale of nutjobs.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • RedSparrows 18 Feb 2013 12:49:12 22,351 posts
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    ^ What MD says + I don't think being 'without religion' is a useful idea.

    Practically it's impossible, I am sure you'd agree, but I think it goes so far to the core of what being human is about that you might as well say 'what would the world be like if we didn't have long-term memory.' It's just not helpful, in my view - but please, don't let me stop you, I am interested in what people think about this.

    (let alone the difficulty of calculating cost-benefit of religion's impact. You can't do it)

    Edited by RedSparrows at 12:53:35 18-02-2013
  • Mola_Ram 18 Feb 2013 13:04:30 7,258 posts
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    As a thought experiment? A world without religion?

    OK. With regard to conflict and such, people would find something else to fight about, something else to justify their land and power-grabbing. Nationalism, racism, blood feuds, etc. There will always be some excuse.

    With regards to the questions of existence... well, people are going to ask those questions. Even in a world without religion there will be people for whom science does not provide a satisfactory answer to these questions. They would turn to spirituality, and eventually find fellow dissatisfied people. And if there were no religion in this world, they would probably start one eventually.

    Tbh I think it happens and develops naturally. It has been so integral to the development of the human race that I could not really begin to imagine a world without it. Although those points are a matter of some debate.
  • Scimarad 18 Feb 2013 13:09:07 8,537 posts
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    I'm not someone who really understands the personal need for religion but I don't know why you'd want to take away something that gives people comfort. Every belief system has it's fair share of nut-jobs even if that belief is "You were born and you're gonna die; Make what you want of it in the intervening time"

    I'd certainly be curious in seeing the way the world might have ended up without religion in much the same way I'd be curious to see it with total and unified religious belief. I don't really wish to live in either of those scenarios, though.
  • warlockuk 18 Feb 2013 13:19:46 19,151 posts
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    Dangerous_Dan wrote:
    I don't know about the breeding faster - birth rate isn't that high in western countries.
    Aye, what I meant was people would live longer and there'd be lower rates of infant mortality. So more people alive to breed etc :)

    I'm a grumpy bastard.

  • L_Franko Moderator 18 Feb 2013 13:26:29 9,694 posts
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    I don't believe in a God but I'd never try to make someone join my way of thinking. People can worship a tin of chicken soup for all I care so long as they don't try and get me involved as well.
  • MrTomFTW Moderator 18 Feb 2013 13:31:51 37,905 posts
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    Religion is like having a penis. Good for you if you have one, and it's perfectly normal and acceptable to be proud of it. Just don't go waving it around in public, and don't you ever dare to try and shove it down my kids throats.

    Follow me on Twitter: @MrTom
    Voted by the community "Best mod" 2011, 2012 and 2013.

  • riceNpea 18 Feb 2013 13:36:12 592 posts
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    @MrTomFTW

    interesting that your analogy is exactly like religion. fuck you if you have a vagina.
  • Mola_Ram 18 Feb 2013 13:36:40 7,258 posts
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    And quite naturally you would want your penis to be bigger and admired by more people. But not too big, lest it become unwieldy and impossible to fit anywhere.
  • kalel 18 Feb 2013 13:37:53 87,180 posts
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    L_Franko wrote:
    I don't believe in a God but I'd never try to make someone join my way of thinking. People can worship a tin of chicken soup for all I care so long as they don't try and get me involved as well.
    It's a very happy and convenient solution to everyone getting along, but I'm not convinced that as a civilisation it's a progressive and workable solution to just say the best thing is for everyone to believe whatever nonsense they like, as long as it doesn't impact anyone else.

    The fact is it always impacts on someone else, and that's the whole problem.
  • MrTomFTW Moderator 18 Feb 2013 13:40:51 37,905 posts
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    riceNpea wrote:
    @MrTomFTW

    interesting that your analogy is exactly like religion. fuck you if you have a vagina.
    I'll have to remember that one.

    Follow me on Twitter: @MrTom
    Voted by the community "Best mod" 2011, 2012 and 2013.

  • Dangerous_Dan 18 Feb 2013 13:41:40 2,380 posts
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    I worship progress.
    If I am a good progressive then one day, the kingdom of heaven will come to earth and we will be happy there for all eternity.
    All the progressives and me are equal under its law. We are all unified beneath its rule. We all share the same morals. Because we are good, I mean, reasonable, we agree on them.
    I feel safe under its banner.

    We are very tolerant, if you come from some other religion then you can even keep that religon in name as long as you also adopt our rules. We are progressive, not only in name but we constantly try to improve. That's why our rules evolve over time. We are goal oriented, we are the future and whatever brings us closer to heaven on earth - we'll do it.

    We do not seek conflict, we want to unify everybody under one glorious banner, for the benefit of humanity. We are enlightened.
  • MetalDog 18 Feb 2013 13:44:36 23,697 posts
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    What do you do to people who don't adopt your rules and stick with their own?

    @MrTomFTW
    What's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • Chopsen 18 Feb 2013 13:45:47 15,885 posts
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    MetalDog wrote:
    What do you do to people who don't adopt your rules and stick with their own?
    Throw rocks at them
  • Dangerous_Dan 18 Feb 2013 14:21:11 2,380 posts
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    MetalDog wrote:
    What do you do to people who don't adopt your rules and stick with their own?
    Well, what happens if you don't pay your taxes or break the rules? There is strength in numbers. The only thing which can stop us would be something from within.
  • MetalDog 18 Feb 2013 14:25:28 23,697 posts
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    Chucking people in nick for not worshipping progress doesn't sound very enlightened or tolerant really.
    Or throwing rocks at them =)

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • Deleted user 18 February 2013 14:25:28
    Dangerous_Dan wrote:
    I worship progress.
    If I am a good progressive then one day, the kingdom of heaven will come to earth and we will be happy there for all eternity.
    All the progressives and me are equal under its law. We are all unified beneath its rule. We all share the same morals. Because we are good, I mean, reasonable, we agree on them.
    I feel safe under its banner.

    We are very tolerant, if you come from some other religion then you can even keep that religon in name as long as you also adopt our rules. We are progressive, not only in name but we constantly try to improve. That's why our rules evolve over time. We are goal oriented, we are the future and whatever brings us closer to heaven on earth - we'll do it.

    We do not seek conflict, we want to unify everybody under one glorious banner, for the benefit of humanity. We are enlightened.
    Which film or computer game are you quoting?
  • Dangerous_Dan 18 Feb 2013 14:27:18 2,380 posts
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    Try to find this on google.
  • Dangerous_Dan 18 Feb 2013 14:32:44 2,380 posts
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    MetalDog wrote:
    Chucking people in nick for not worshipping progress doesn't sound very enlightened or tolerant really.
    Or throwing rocks at them =)
    Yeah well, if you have enough people in your movement you'll find it easy to find fools who don't care about reality as long as it's comforting.

    Did I mention that we are pro feminsim?

    Edited by Dangerous_Dan at 14:33:56 18-02-2013
  • MetalDog 18 Feb 2013 14:39:37 23,697 posts
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    Heh.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • Deleted user 18 February 2013 14:44:31
    Or just tell me as a google search came up several religions.
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