The referendum on the United Kingdom's membership within the EU Page 8

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  • Bremenacht 23 Jan 2013 22:46:17 17,614 posts
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    Cripper wrote:
    When the UK joined the common market we had a thriving fishing fleet it has now been completely decimated due mainly to over fishing by other EU countries who gained access to our territorial waters when we joined the common market.
    Not true. It was decimated because it was packed with greedy bastards who fished as much as they could and claimed that fish stocks were Ok because they just knew they were. Science proved otherwise.
  • mcmonkeyplc 23 Jan 2013 23:01:05 39,387 posts
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    This is the misinformation that makes me weep.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • Moot_Point 23 Jan 2013 23:32:22 3,919 posts
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    @mcmonkeyplc Man the Fuck up! :p

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    mowgli wrote: I thought the 1 married the .2 and founded Islam?

  • Deleted user 23 January 2013 23:46:32
    The EU is imo one of the most important things to happen to the world. People don't quite appreciate how fucking crucial it is and demonstrative of how far we have come. Of course it isn't ideal but it needs work from the inside (not by stepping outside). Ultimately it has to continue, improve then expand. We need to be deeper in the EU ffs. I believe it is fair to call up the people shouting it down for their dangerous ignorance.
  • Moot_Point 23 Jan 2013 23:50:04 3,919 posts
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    @mowgli The road of ignorance is a two way street. I have never understood he need for a political union, when the single market was adequate enough. Monetary union before a political union is the most talked about failure of the EU to date.

    Edited by Moot_Point at 00:13:21 24-01-2013

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    mowgli wrote: I thought the 1 married the .2 and founded Islam?

  • Deleted user 24 January 2013 00:04:11
    @mcmonkeyplc

    If you don't like the idea of moving unionist government builds around every 8years to avoid disenfranchisement, can I ask you if we should just have the Olympics, World Cup and European Cup finals in Brussels every tournament too?

    I'm prepared to be convinced by information you provide if you take up the gauntlet of arguing why the UK needs EU membership.

    Why not start off by telling us what you personally anticipate losing if the UK withdraw. A good response to this one, will be the ability to put food on the table and losing a roof over your head.
  • disusedgenius 24 Jan 2013 00:18:20 5,225 posts
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    vizzini wrote:
    Why not start off by telling us what you personally anticipate losing if the UK withdraw.
    Further erosion of worker and consumer rights, a continuing decline in the standards of living and increase in cost of it. I'd also guess at a slow down in terms of investment, a lower international standing and an increase in this little island mentality of ours.

    It won't be the end of the world, but it'll be worse than it should be.
  • mal 24 Jan 2013 00:28:57 22,341 posts
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    vizzini wrote:
    @mcmonkeyplc

    If you don't like the idea of moving unionist government builds around every 8years to avoid disenfranchisement, can I ask you if we should just have the Olympics, World Cup and European Cup finals in Brussels every tournament too?
    I've not been following this argument, but surely accoding to your maxim, we ought to rotate the houses of parliament round the nations that make up the united kingdom too?

    I'm prepared to be convinced by information you provide if you take up the gauntlet of arguing why the UK needs EU membership.

    Why not start off by telling us what you personally anticipate losing if the UK withdraw. A good response to this one, will be the ability to put food on the table and losing a roof over your head.
    It gives me the right to look for work in more prosperous countries, not just my own without worrying about the headache that is work visas. And when I last had a job, and was employed by a UK company that almost went bust, that company was bought out by a company headquartered in a different European country. The buy out was a fairly complicated, in that the UK company owned a subsidiary company in a different EU country (which again was probably massively simplified by us all being in the EU), and the buyout formed another UK company as a byproduct, which I'd imagine wouldn't have been formed in the UK if we were outside the EU, as it would have involved a significant transfer of IP across borders, including some that's cryptographically significant.

    Course, that's all conjecture on my part, but I genuinely believe that it would have been more complicated to do the above between three nation states, and would at least have resulted in me being made redundant sooner and with a much less generous payout.

    I also buy a fair bit of stuff from abroad, and I'll say it's a lot easier to buy from EU states than it is from elsewhere, and a lot easier to buy from the continent since we've harmonised our VAT rates.

    Edited by mal at 00:29:30 24-01-2013

    Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!

  • dsmx 24 Jan 2013 00:50:03 7,563 posts
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    Lets be honest here none of us know what's going to happen, were all speculating about something that hasn't happened before in the history of the EU. We don't even know how the UK would even go about leaving the EU.

    I'm actually looking forward to there being a vote on it, I want to see how eurosceptic Britain actually is since we've never had a national vote on EU membership before. The one we last got 40 years ago was on being in the European common market not the EU as it stands today.

    From the EU point of view I can only see them losing from this vote proposal if Britain actually ends up being in a better position out the EU in 10-20 years time then it is now which if you believe the doom-mongers isn't very likely.

    Yes cameron is using this promise of a vote on the EU as a cheap political tactic to try and wring out concessions from Europe and to try and get more votes at the next election but it's still a vote I think the British people need if only to see if the daily mail is right after all these years.

    "If we hit that bullseye the rest of the dominoes will fall like a a house of cards, checkmate." Zapp Brannigan

  • mal 24 Jan 2013 00:59:57 22,341 posts
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    mcmonkeyplc wrote:
    Sums up my feelings

    Too much rage again.
    Good post, if pessimistic. Personally I'm buoyed by some of the comments from the less centralist states, and from certain news journalists, in that this might be the catalyst to simplify the bureaucracy (if at all possible) and make the whole edifice more representative than it is at present.

    But I agree this was a very dangerous speech to make, that Cameron was pushed into making, and I can only hope that the markets choose to interpret it more along the lines I choose than the ones you do.

    And of course, there's the problem that no matter what amazing terms Cameron manages to negotiate, certain newspapers are unlikely to back the outcome come what may. And on that note I'm not an optimist, as I don't see that situation changing in the next five years.

    Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!

  • sirtacos 24 Jan 2013 07:15:58 7,271 posts
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    Dunno if this has been posted yet, but here's an Economist piece on the debate.
  • mcmonkeyplc 24 Jan 2013 09:29:05 39,387 posts
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    mal wrote:
    mcmonkeyplc wrote:
    Sums up my feelings

    Too much rage again.
    Good post, if pessimistic. Personally I'm buoyed by some of the comments from the less centralist states, and from certain news journalists, in that this might be the catalyst to simplify the bureaucracy (if at all possible) and make the whole edifice more representative than it is at present.

    But I agree this was a very dangerous speech to make, that Cameron was pushed into making, and I can only hope that the markets choose to interpret it more along the lines I choose than the ones you do.

    And of course, there's the problem that no matter what amazing terms Cameron manages to negotiate, certain newspapers are unlikely to back the outcome come what may. And on that note I'm not an optimist, as I don't see that situation changing in the next five years.
    You're right. There is some good that can come out of this, like making the bureaucracy leaner and expanding the single market. The EU certainly does need reform and it's going to get it. My fear is that the potential negatives from this outweigh the positives.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • Deleted user 24 January 2013 11:41:03
    @mal

    Yes I would happily see the UK government move to impoverished areas of UK countries every eight years too. The prestige alone might finally fix some (100year old) high-unemployment problems.

    Your own personal investment in the EU for upwardly mobile working seems like a reasonable comment. My personal problem with such a benefit, is that it is one that only a very small fraction of British people can or will positively exploit. Instead, the rest are being shackled to many things that erode their culture and lifestyle.

    Anecdotally the decline in access to “freely” available running water from drinking fountains and free to use (maintained) toilets throughout the UK now mirrors my earliest third-world-esq experiences of the French cities from some 30years ago. In a Kyptonian like utopia of the future, are we to expect people forced to urinate in the streets and risk public order offences late at night? Is that in anyway a civilised culture? Is it an improvement on 30years previous where the UK homeless could at least wash and drink water?

    Back on topic, the downsides of shared government functions actually increases unemployment in all EU sovereign nations. Duplication of government functions are also important safeguards against EU wide benefits, housing, tax and corporation tax fraud.

    I can see the argument for connected lands having simplicity, where the movement of people across boarders will be much much higher, but not for an Island nation, detached by water from mainland Europe.

    At present, I feel that the only people that benefit in Britain from EU inclusion are a small vocal minority of people, crooks and swindlers. BBC's consumer rights programs certainly highlight the crooks and swindlers element.

    So I find it hard to believe the EU does more good for island life, than the damage standardization does.

    The capitalist fallout from leaving the EU is something completely different, and the question of how the poorest people will be impacted is also important for me. I'm still thinking about them to shape my overall opinion.
  • disusedgenius 24 Jan 2013 11:46:05 5,225 posts
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    Your inability to articulate a point well is really quite tiresome.
  • Fake_Blood 24 Jan 2013 11:54:10 4,082 posts
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    I wonder what kind of work he does that permits him to post walls of text in the middle of the day.
  • AcidSnake 24 Jan 2013 11:54:53 7,222 posts
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    @vizzini:
    Oh good, you're back...

    If you were to enact your stupid roving government there are only negative effects, you must see this...

    Any new occupation it might generate will collapse wherever they leave and moving will only cost money...
    Not to mention the thousands of families you'd uproot (in the case of a nation's country shifting locations)...

    Though you'll have to explain just how being in the EU "shackles" you to many things that erode your culture and lifestyle?

    And just to reassure you, no, the EU is not stealing your toilets...

    AcidSnake - He can't see your sig, avatar, images or vids and talks about himself in the third person because he's proper old-skool...UID 24017

  • mcmonkeyplc 24 Jan 2013 12:12:31 39,387 posts
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    ...close to breaking point here.
    @vizzini

    I will address your points one at a time.

    1. Moving the parliament around isn't going to improve employment in the long term, anywhere. I really have no idea where you're getting this idea from. Permanent decentralisation of government offices already exists, see DVLA, tax offices etc. These DO provide long term improvements in local employment in the regions.

    2.Let's say hypothetically that you're correct. Only the few benefit from being mobile across the EU in their working lifes. These people are normally the highest paid individuals, presumably being paid by companies across the channel. These people will then spend this money in their home country when they come over to visit/ live here (commuting is possible). So the local economy benefits from them spending money earned abroad here.

    Now let's put it another more meaningful way. Companies are more mobile as well as people. Many European companies have offices here in the UK as it is easy for colleagues and money to travel to and from here to the mainland of the EU. They can benefit from our "skilled" labour, local market and we benefit from the income and services they provide.

    3. I'm not even going to bother addressing this.

    4. What duplication? The UK needs it's own housing department, own social security department and own corporation tax because it's logical to have these departments closer to the population that requires them as they are then better equipped to deal with local problems not seen at higher levels of government. This is an important part of the EU. Subsidiarity, where the local form of government is seen as the most efficient.

    5. 4 miles of water separates us. We have the busiest stretch of water in the world. Ships, ferries and even trains connect us to the mainland. We ARE connected.

    6. I've addressed this above but your opinions appear to be guided by misinformation from the tabloids and very little fact.

    7. The poorest people will lose their jobs. The richest will move. The rest will have to struggle on.

    Edited by mcmonkeyplc at 12:13:09 24-01-2013

    Edited by mcmonkeyplc at 12:13:38 24-01-2013

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • ScoutTech 24 Jan 2013 12:31:47 2,423 posts
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    A roving Government? I'm sorry but that is a stupid idea. I'm not against it moving or departments moving out of London but to constantly move? So we'd either have to have buildings sitting around mothballed for long periods of time until Parliament comes back to them or have to source/build new space every move. Most departments seem to be unable to keep hold of their resources and documents when they are stuck in one building, imagine the losses between moves!

    Add to that the fluctuations in local prices when the Government circus came to town, having to ensure accommodation, transport links, security, etc etc etc etc. & the costs would be astronomical, even if the whole thing wasn't run by a government department!

    Ohhh and then the downturn, decline and issues once the whole show ups and leaves!

    Edited by ScoutTech at 12:32:27 24-01-2013
  • DaM 24 Jan 2013 13:05:57 12,902 posts
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    One of the most ridiculous things about the EU is the parliament moving between Brussels and Strasbourg, is that what you want?

    The EU stopping tramps getting a wash though....maybe he has something here. If Cameron promises tramp washing stations, I'm in! I mean out!
  • RedSparrows 24 Jan 2013 13:06:13 22,071 posts
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    vizzini wrote:
    @mcmonkeyplc

    If you don't like the idea of moving unionist government builds around every 8years to avoid disenfranchisement, can I ask you if we should just have the Olympics, World Cup and European Cup finals in Brussels every tournament too?

    I'm prepared to be convinced by information you provide if you take up the gauntlet of arguing why the UK needs EU membership.

    Why not start off by telling us what you personally anticipate losing if the UK withdraw. A good response to this one, will be the ability to put food on the table and losing a roof over your head.
    You really do talk absolute shit.
  • MrTomFTW Moderator 24 Jan 2013 13:14:48 37,379 posts
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    A moving government would be a MASSIVE waste of time and money. Just think of the accommodation costs alone for all those MPs, you think its bad with their second houses now? Think of all the money that would have to be spent moving every 8 years or whatever arbitrary number you think is appropriate. Then you start to think about the actual logistics of it. Jesus H. Christ!

    As for an exit from the EU. Another effect would be causing the UK to be unable to compete anywhere near as well on the world market. Leaving the EU means leaving the free trade market that comes with it. The price of importing and exporting goes up, the ability to hire foreign workers is reduced, the ability to operate in foreign countries is reduced and British business goes down the pan.

    Then there's security - wave goodbye to open co-operation with Europol and the likes...

    Follow me on Twitter: @MrTom
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  • disusedgenius 24 Jan 2013 13:19:51 5,225 posts
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    MrTomFTW wrote:
    Leaving the EU means leaving the free trade market that comes with it.
    I swear I've seen it said that any country leaving the EU can negotiate a free trade agreement with it, so I don't think that's a given, to be fair. The EU has free trade with a number of external countries, I believe.
  • mcmonkeyplc 24 Jan 2013 13:20:49 39,387 posts
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    I just read the daily mail article on the speech. I felt physically sick at the back slapping in the article.

    Should have read the times instead to get a proper idea of the "other sides" take.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • Chopsen 24 Jan 2013 13:21:29 15,727 posts
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    But it would have to be negotiated, wouldn't it? And also, it could lapse and would need re-negotiation. Probably after 10 turns.
  • disusedgenius 24 Jan 2013 13:22:10 5,225 posts
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    Oh, bravo. :)

    But yes, probably. It'd certainly a be a weaker position to be in.
  • Randomlampy 24 Jan 2013 13:23:12 580 posts
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    A roving government? Rather like a Democrabus?



    Edited by Randomlampy at 13:23:59 24-01-2013
  • mcmonkeyplc 24 Jan 2013 13:25:00 39,387 posts
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    disusedgenius wrote:
    MrTomFTW wrote:
    Leaving the EU means leaving the free trade market that comes with it.
    I swear I've seen it said that any country leaving the EU can negotiate a free trade agreement with it, so I don't think that's a given, to be fair. The EU has free trade with a number of external countries, I believe.
    This is true but free trade is not the same as the single market.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • MrTomFTW Moderator 24 Jan 2013 13:40:42 37,379 posts
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    mcmonkeyplc wrote:
    disusedgenius wrote:
    MrTomFTW wrote:
    Leaving the EU means leaving the free trade market that comes with it.
    I swear I've seen it said that any country leaving the EU can negotiate a free trade agreement with it, so I don't think that's a given, to be fair. The EU has free trade with a number of external countries, I believe.
    This is true but free trade is not the same as the single market.
    Ah single market, yes. That was the term I was looking for. Thanks.

    Follow me on Twitter: @MrTom
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  • Fake_Blood 24 Jan 2013 13:43:30 4,082 posts
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    Yeah, once you guys leave we won't be buying any more of your erm ...
    Wtf do you guys export anyway? Tea?
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