Childlessness Page 8

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  • brokenkey 2 Jan 2013 11:35:23 7,159 posts
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    MetalDog wrote:
    Children are probably the ultimate expression of romantic love
    I usually agree with MD on everything, but this reads like something from Downton Abbey. Children are a great shared experience for the parents - we usually find something to laugh at or otherwise share each day. It's not romance though.

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  • Deleted user 2 January 2013 11:35:38
    MD's got it spot on really (although I think the robot comments are all joking really, and possibly slightly deserved given the intentionally hyper-rational point of view LB is putting across).
  • Deleted user 2 January 2013 11:36:28
    @brokenkey

    That quite from MD doesn't make sense without the rest of the sentence. She's talking about the act of making kids there.
  • LeoliansBro 2 Jan 2013 11:36:58 44,961 posts
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    ModishNouns wrote:
    MrTomFTW wrote:
    LeoliansBro wrote:

    People in their 40s with teenage kids have no idea what it is like to be childless in their 40s :p
    Empty? Meaningless? :)
    The point at which men turn to leather jackets and Harleys and women start panic buying puppies :)
    Waaaaaaaaay ahead of you ;)

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Rusty_M 2 Jan 2013 11:38:56 4,947 posts
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    MetalDog wrote:
    I think the importance of the platonic loves are tragically underrated a lot of the time.
    I don't think I've ever seen a sentiment on here I agree with as much as this.

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  • nickthegun 2 Jan 2013 11:40:02 61,348 posts
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    Neither would hitler.

    /BAM

    EDIT: Im not mad. Just edit morriss's's deleted post for original context.

    Edited by nickthegun at 11:43:00 02-01-2013

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  • chopsen 2 Jan 2013 11:40:15 16,290 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    @brokenkey

    That quite from MD doesn't make sense without the rest of the sentence. She's talking about the act of making kids there.
    I need very little excuse to post this.
  • morriss 2 Jan 2013 11:40:19 71,286 posts
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    Post deleted
  • ZuluHero 2 Jan 2013 11:42:18 4,326 posts
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    We should come back to this thread in 10 or so years. It'll be interesting to see what people's opinions are then :)
  • silentbob 2 Jan 2013 11:42:55 29,028 posts
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    Psychotext wrote:
    munki83 wrote:
    I have 3 nieces a nephew and one more niece/nephew on the way and I must admit...it makes me want to have kids event less.
    Funny. I have two adult nieces and nephews and three young ones and I must say that if I trace it back it's probably them which put me off having kids.

    Maybe it's an itch which was already scratched in that way, or maybe I've just seen what a nightmare kids can be a little too close up, without having all that hormonal benefit of them being mine. :D


    brokenkey wrote:
    The only way any of us are going to be remembered or even known about in 100-200 years time is if you have children - because one of their descendent is likely to get into genealogy and will write your name down somewhere.
    ....and you'll still be dead. Hell, for all you know, you might not have any grandkids anyway for whatever reason.
    To add the the list of people saying likewise, I really never did (or do) have time for other people's kids. Whether your desire has been quelled by the experiences with other people's children I cannot say. What I can say is that, you can never know what parenthood is like by hanging around other people's offspring. Only the thoughts and feelings of people who've had children can really change your mind.

    It's about as subjective an emotional a subject as is possible, which is why I included my somewhat pathetic Axel F story above. It illustrates simultaneously how wonderful being a parent can be and how impossible it is to describe why to anyone else.

    So, 18 pages predicted at minimum before this thread descends (ascends?) into Savile-based bumming jokes.

    Edited by silentbob at 11:46:54 02-01-2013

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  • Steve_Perry 2 Jan 2013 11:46:35 5,201 posts
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    I don't mind kids. I do mind shit parents. Having worked in pubs years ago, i found it amazing how many people will utter racism in front of their toddler, thus passing it on to a new generation of mindless spacks. I would constitute that as child abuse. They should be catapulted into the sun.

    Edited by Steve_Perry at 11:46:47 02-01-2013

    Edited by Steve_Perry at 11:47:05 02-01-2013
  • Psychotext 2 Jan 2013 11:50:09 55,048 posts
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    silentbob wrote:
    What I can say is that, you can never know what parenthood is like by hanging around other people's offspring. Only the thoughts and feelings of people who've had children can really change your mind.
    Maybe, but again, I can only assume that's just hormonal because I lived with my nephew (and helped bring him up) from the age of zero to the age of 16 (I moved away for a while). My experience was basically as close as you can get without actually having one of your own.

    He doesn't have a father (in the picture) so I was a father figure for him... but whilst I'm very proud of how he's turned out, I still wouldn't have one of my own (plus now I have other reasons for not wanting one).
  • S.J.Rogers 2 Jan 2013 11:53:05 3,557 posts
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    brokenkey wrote:
    S.J.Rogers wrote:
    As I said I really do not like kids at all and having a vasectomy is the BEST decision I have EVER made..!
    Really? The ability to jizz inside your partner with a 98% certainty that they can't get pregnant is the best decision you've ever made? Even though at 35 you'll not be getting quite as much rumpy as you used to, and its downhill all the way from there?

    You need to try making more decisions.
    Actually it IS the best decision I have ever made.

    And not because I can have unprotected sex, will still probably use a condom. It’s because it gives me piece of mind and stops me from worrying about unwanted pregnancy.

    For many years I have been completely obsessed with the idea of accidentally getting a girl pregnant, to the point that after sex (always with protection) I would not be able to sleep and I would be worrying about it until her next period and I felt that this was making me ill.

    I am very aware that these issues were mostly in my head and I was being stupid to worry about it, but it was my problem and this HAS bee the best thing I could do for my own happiness.

    So you brokenkey can go FUCK YOURSELF…!!!

    As I have said, I can’t stand kids..!
  • brokenkey 2 Jan 2013 11:53:24 7,159 posts
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    Psychotext wrote:

    He doesn't have a father (in the picture) so I was a father figure for him... but whilst I'm very proud of how he's turned out, I still wouldn't have one of my own (plus now I have other reasons for not wanting one).
    Is there a blog or other forum thread where you expand on your other reasons (assuming these are the same ones you mentioned earlier in this thread). I'm interested in how you've reached that from your personal circumstance but recognise this isn't the thread for you to discuss them.

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  • brokenkey 2 Jan 2013 11:54:44 7,159 posts
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    S.J.Rogers wrote:
    brokenkey wrote:
    S.J.Rogers wrote:
    As I said I really do not like kids at all and having a vasectomy is the BEST decision I have EVER made..!
    Really? The ability to jizz inside your partner with a 98% certainty that they can't get pregnant is the best decision you've ever made? Even though at 35 you'll not be getting quite as much rumpy as you used to, and its downhill all the way from there?

    You need to try making more decisions.
    Actually it IS the best decision I have ever made.

    And not because I can have unprotected sex, will still probably use a condom. It’s because it gives me piece of mind and stops me from worrying about unwanted pregnancy.

    For many years I have been completely obsessed with the idea of accidentally getting a girl pregnant, to the point that after sex (always with protection) I would not be able to sleep and I would be worrying about it until her next period and I felt that this was making me ill.

    I am very aware that these issues were mostly in my head and I was being stupid to worry about it, but it was my problem and this HAS bee the best thing I could do for my own happiness.

    So you brokenkey can go FUCK YOURSELF…!!!

    As I have said, I can’t stand kids..!
    Yeah, its probably best you don't have any.

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  • Psychotext 2 Jan 2013 11:55:08 55,048 posts
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    No. Anything which makes it online from me tends to be shallow at best. :)
  • Deleted user 2 January 2013 12:01:32
    Platonic relationships are undervalued, but again, when people voice concerns about having less free time and money as reasons not to have children, it mortifies me how much the value of that particular relationship is undervalued.

    It genuinely saddens me to read people saying things like "I don't want to not have my life not be my own" or cite finances or time as reasons to not have kids. Properly hits me in the heart to hear that. Perhaps it's just a rationalisation of a deeper basic lack of desire (and that I have no issue with), but if things like time and money truly are the only barriers to you missing out on the experience of having children, then that's a sad thing indeed*

    *I'm not talking about literally not being able to afford children, I'm talking about choosing material things and expensive lifestyles in preference.
  • morriss 2 Jan 2013 12:02:19 71,286 posts
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    I agree with kalel, mostly, and what I said a few pages back: nothing wrong with not wanting/not having kids. I however, don't ascribe to the "oh woe is me and my incredibly important life that I'll have to give up" sentiment.

    My marriage is stronger for it, that's one. I'm stronger for it: the amount you learn about yourself is shocking, and that can only be good. Having to put yourself to one side is humbling and character building. As is trying to live up the the rather enormous responsibilities that are involved.

    Yes, it's extremely hard work, but the best things in life are. Wading through shit and screaming and coming out clean on the other side is the real test of a man, imo.

    You also see that your wife look at you differently, especially when being a "good dad." It's another level of respect and understanding in a relationship, that look. Difficult to describe other than that you can feel it when your back is turned and it often results in a fantastic shag later on - not there and then, that would be horrifying for the children.

    Given what I know about Gremmi, I think it would be a tragedy that he didn't have a child. Someone as intelligent and as sensitive as he is not having a child is a waste. Fair enough that he doesn't want one, although the reasons why he doesn't I take issue with, but who cares what I think. However, there is some credence to Dirtbox's sentiment about being in some way duty bound, I think. Almost everything that is wrong with our society on a social level has been parenting. The more ethically responsible, intelligent, caring, sensitive yet forthright and virtuous (Gremmi) that become parents the better society will be as a whole.

    But, as with most things in life, the people whom society would be better off if they didn't reproduce are the ones with the most children and vice-versa. That's the real tragedy.
  • cubbymoore 2 Jan 2013 12:06:41 36,507 posts
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    Morriss wants gremmi's babies.
  • Psychotext 2 Jan 2013 12:08:19 55,048 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    It genuinely saddens me to read people saying things like "I don't want to not have my life not be my own" or cite finances or time as reasons to not have kids.
    ...and finances aren't important? I grew up in a poor family and I know how hard life could be at times when I watched my parents desperately struggling to try to get the money together to pay the bills or buy clothes for us.

    As for time, if you're purely career minded then I don't think you should have kids either. I know many people who were brought up by nurseries, babysitters and boarding schools. Some of them genuinely spent under an hour a day with their parents on average when they were young... and that's really not acceptable.

    (I know these extremes weren't the point you were trying to make, but they're valid if you don't want your child to suffer in one way or another)

    Edited by Psychotext at 12:09:33 02-01-2013
  • morriss 2 Jan 2013 12:08:59 71,286 posts
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    Kalel qualifies what he means by finances at the end of his post. :)
  • Psychotext 2 Jan 2013 12:09:59 55,048 posts
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    Hence what I say at the end of mine.
  • morriss 2 Jan 2013 12:11:48 71,286 posts
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    Right.
  • JoeBlade 2 Jan 2013 12:12:40 2,664 posts
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    Why do people continue to insist on terms like "reason" or "purpose" when talking about human life, or even life in general?
    It's pure arrogant self-importance. Like everything in the uni/multiverse (or whatever else the sum of all reality may be) we just happened, period.

    Nothing and no one in gives one microfuck whether we reproduce or not except for ourselves. Nothing and no one but ourselves gives a microfuck whether the human race continues to exist or not.

    If having children makes your life more fulfilling: good on you. If it doesn't: good on you.
    There are no right or wrong, meaning or purpose or whatnot involved anywhere in any of that. It all just is.
  • nickthegun 2 Jan 2013 12:14:12 61,348 posts
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    Psychotext wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    It genuinely saddens me to read people saying things like "I don't want to not have my life not be my own" or cite finances or time as reasons to not have kids.
    ...and finances aren't important? I grew up in a poor family and I know how hard life could be at times when I watched my parents desperately struggling to try to get the money together to pay the bills or buy clothes for us.
    But, if you asked them whether they would rather have had a marginally easier life or you, what do you think they will say?

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  • brokenkey 2 Jan 2013 12:15:18 7,159 posts
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    Psychotext wrote:

    As for time, if you're purely career minded then I don't think you should have kids either. I know many people who were brought up by nurseries, babysitters and boarding schools. Some of them genuinely spent under an hour a day with their parents on average when they were young... and that's really not acceptable.
    What with getting them in bed at 7-8pm, after school club and working, I'd say children seeing their parents for 1 hour a day is the norm when both parents work full time. And both parents working full time is pretty much the norm, due to the way the economy has changed the price of housing, childcare etc.

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  • morriss 2 Jan 2013 12:15:42 71,286 posts
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    JoeBlade wrote:
    Why do people continue to insist on terms like "reason" or "purpose" when talking about human life, or even life in general?
    It's pure arrogant self-importance. Like everything in the uni/multiverse (or whatever else the sum of all reality may be) we just happened, period.

    Nothing and no one in gives one microfuck whether we reproduce or not except for ourselves. Nothing and no one but ourselves gives a microfuck whether the human race continues to exist or not.

    If having children makes your life more fulfilling: good on you. If it doesn't: good on you.
    There are no right or wrong, meaning or purpose or whatnot involved anywhere in any of that. It all just is.
    No it isn't.
  • Stickman 2 Jan 2013 12:16:16 29,664 posts
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    JoeBlade wrote:
    Nothing and no one in gives one microfuck whether we reproduce or not except fo]r ourselves.
    Don't know if you noticed, but this is one of those forums with humans on.

    THIS SPACE FOR RENT

  • silentbob 2 Jan 2013 12:16:32 29,028 posts
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    Psychotext wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    It genuinely saddens me to read people saying things like "I don't want to not have my life not be my own" or cite finances or time as reasons to not have kids.
    ...and finances aren't important? I grew up in a poor family and I know how hard life could be at times when I watched my parents desperately struggling to try to get the money together to pay the bills or buy clothes for us.

    As for time, if you're purely career minded then I don't think you should have kids either. I know many people who were brought up by nurseries, babysitters and boarding schools. Some of them genuinely spent under an hour a day with their parents on average when they were young... and that's really not acceptable.

    (I know these extremes weren't the point you were trying to make, but they're valid if you don't want your child to suffer in one way or another)
    I think the point is that it wasn't for fear of the kids suffering but that they or their career or their finances would.

    My wife's parents had six kids and were hellishly poor, but her parents wouldn't change anything.

    The key issue in this thread is the rationalisation of having kids. In my opinion it cannot be done. This is not something you can weigh up in a spreadsheet nor is it a decision to be made based on speculation on what might happen.

    Bottom line, if you don't feel as if you want kids that's really all that matters. Pasting over that feeling with semi-structured reasoning won't give you any reinforcement for that feeling of any merit whatsoever.

    Edited by silentbob at 12:17:21 02-01-2013

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  • Psychotext 2 Jan 2013 12:16:44 55,048 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    But, if you asked them whether they would rather have had a marginally easier life or you, what do you think they will say?

    Wasn't about how easy or difficult their life was, it was about how easy or difficult the life of the child is (as it goes, I didn't suffer in any meaningful way, but obviously some kids do).

    ...and sadly I can't ask them. Neither are around any more.


    morriss wrote:
    No it isn't.
    It really is. Anything we've added on top of that reality is purely the human need to try and add meaning to everything.


    silentbob wrote:
    Bottom line, if you don't feel as if you want kids that's really all that matters. Pasting over that feeling with semi-structured reasoning won't give you any reinforcement for that feeling of any merit whatsoever.
    I don't know if that was aimed at me, but the finances / time points wouldn't really apply to me anwyay. Thanks to being self employed I can choose to be as cash / time rich as I want to be pretty much anywhere along a scale. Kids wouldn't be an issue in either way.

    Edited by Psychotext at 12:20:22 02-01-2013
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