Unpopular gaming opinions Page 82

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  • JinTypeNoir 5 May 2013 02:01:20 4,392 posts
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    This is surreal. As you guys are talking about the 360 pad, I find myself struggling to remember what it even looks like. Isn't it kind of like the Saturn pad?
  • DrStrangelove 5 May 2013 02:19:54 5,265 posts
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    Yes, they suck. I think the best shoulder buttons were those of the SNES, actually.

    Speaking of which, the SNES controller was an excellent design. Sure, it was a controller of the digital era without all the fancy sticks/trigger/rumble/sixaxis stuff we have now, but it absolutely nailed what it did. To that extent that 15 years later, Dualshock and X360 still have the same YXBA button layout, even after Nintendo ditched it.

    And its shoulder buttons laid the template for today's shoulder buttons and triggers.

    Mega Drive controller design? That simply disappeared, except if you want to count the X360's d-pad.


    edit: thinking about it, it's not entirely true the Mega Drive design disappeared. It was designed for a firmer palm-grip like most controllers afterwards, including the X360's, while the DS3 is still closer to the lying-lightly-in-your-hands design of the SNES.

    Edited by DrStrangelove at 02:40:22 05-05-2013

    There is no shortcut to not being evil. - Gabe Newell

  • DrStrangelove 5 May 2013 02:21:58 5,265 posts
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    @JinTypeNoir

    Nah, but I think it's pretty similar to the Dreamcast pad (which is another SNES-"inspired" pad, incidentally).

    Edited by DrStrangelove at 02:23:04 05-05-2013

    There is no shortcut to not being evil. - Gabe Newell

  • RobTheBuilder 5 May 2013 02:23:21 6,521 posts
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    The Gamecube ones were very nearly the best. The pressure with click worked great on some games, and terribly on others.

    Gamecube analogue stick though, still the best there has ever been. Shame the dpad was miniscule and the buttons thrown about.
  • JinTypeNoir 5 May 2013 02:28:15 4,392 posts
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    The Gamecube controller was soooooo comfortable to hold! That thing massaged itself around your hands like it was soft clay.
  • Syrette 5 May 2013 04:10:53 45,156 posts
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    Brilliant post.

  • JinTypeNoir 5 May 2013 04:45:26 4,392 posts
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    PenguinJim wrote:
    There are so many assumptions on your part - like the idea that ALL on-disc DLC was completed as part of the original development, budgeted as part of the original development, and was going to be released as part of the full game.
    In order to have been there on the disc on the first day, it was part of the budget. Whether you believe developers when they tell you that budgeting for downloadable bibble bobs is separate comes down to each developer's reputation and transparency. If they're being honest, they'll be transparent. It's really as simple as that.

    We went for 5 generations of consoles before this one, where somehow, someway, successful developers managed to develop games with reasonable budgets and profit enough to stay alive. If they are whining incessantly about the cost of game production, perhaps they should scale back their games? Don't give me that tripe about "in order to compete with the best" blah blah blah. The best developers don't try to compete, they make their own market. Being upfront and honest with the consumer is ALWAYS the best policy. I don't believe their flimsy excuses and neither should you.

    But what if your new content is developed and finished before the full game has gone gold? Well, obviously, they should make it download-only, because there was absolutely no backlash over Diablo 3 or Sim City being online-only, and everyone has their fingers crossed that the new Xbox will be online-only. Or - hey - it's finished already! The discs haven't been pressed yet! Quick, let's help out the consumer and whack it on there to save them a download.
    Oh dear. Oh my. This is bonkers. How do you compare these two things like this? The very notion of downloadable shitmerbrick is that you must connect to some network to download it. How on Earth else would they give you access to it? Ether fairies? And if its finished beforehand and does not seriously compromise the balance or atmosphere the game was going for, make it free or release it a good while later.

    I don't care if you've got starving children to feed. Most people do have those financial commitments and manage to meet them without being dishonest or fleecing customers. If publishers weren't so greedy and fiscally irresponsible, we wouldn't be in this mess in the first place.

    There may well be "bad" on-disc DLC (not that I've seen any proof).
    Are you aware of the insane controversy Capcom created with this practice, especially in Street Fighter vs. Tekken?

    But I do think that it's entirely idiotic to assume that all on-disc DLC is evil.
    Are you saying this to me or people in general? If it's me, I know. Dishonesty and shady business practices can only really approach evil when they do seriously harmful things. You're preaching to the choir if you're talking to me. I think its despicable, but I'm not one of those people who overreact and pretend like the developers are mustache-twirling train robbers. In fact, I think its infinitely healthier to criticize it, not buy it and move on.

    As for your cake metaphor... well, if they advertised the locked on-disc DLC as being part of the full game and included in the initial price, then your reasoning isn't completely retarded. Do you happen to have a link to when that has ever actually happened..?
    You see, its because I'm not stupid, that I'm not taken in by your rhetorical trick here. You are taking my cake analogy and creating a really dumb interpretation of it. It's like taking a well known saying like "absence makes the heart grow fonder" and concluding that its encouraging people to divorce and is therefore, retarded. I can see right through you.

    Of course there aren't as many instances of that because any bright mind knows what a recipe for public relations disaster it is. There is often no way to tell if the developer is being honest about what their plans were, except by what people are invested in selling the game to you might say.

    What publishers often do is develop games that seem like they are complete and try to present the best image for any other downloadable stuff as extra, OBVIOUSLY. Very few are stupid enough to admit it. However, anyone bright enough to put two and two together can come to the conclusion that this is suspect to abuse, especially nowadays where so many games have awful gameplay design, coupled with huge amounts of designer fluff that amount to so much nothing and give the illusion that the game is more complete with well-thought-out than it is.

    We are not privy to the ins and outs of development of all these games with on-disc stuff you have to unlock by paying to download things. We weren't ever privy to development, just like usually when we buy a cake we can't see somebody baking the cake for us. We don't know what its inside it, but we trust there is a cake in there from previous experience. If suddenly, people start saying to you that you can't get full cakes, we're going to look around at others who are not doing that, or reach back into our memories and say, "Hmmm. Your half-invisible cakes are bullshit."

    Edited by JinTypeNoir at 04:48:06 05-05-2013

    Edited by JinTypeNoir at 04:50:54 05-05-2013
  • JinTypeNoir 5 May 2013 06:49:26 4,392 posts
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    PenguinJim wrote:
    JinTypeNoir wrote:
    As for your cake metaphor... well, if they advertised the locked on-disc DLC as being part of the full game and included in the initial price, then your reasoning isn't completely retarded. Do you happen to have a link to when that has ever actually happened..?
    You see, its because I'm not stupid, that I'm not taken in by your rhetorical trick here. You are taking my cake analogy and creating a really dumb interpretation of it. It's like taking a well known saying like "absence makes the heart grow fonder" and concluding that its encouraging people to divorce and is therefore, retarded. I can see right through you...

    We are not privy to the ins and outs of development of all these games with on-disc stuff you have to unlock by paying to download things. We weren't ever privy to development, just like usually when we buy a cake we can't see somebody baking the cake for us. We don't know what its inside it, but we trust there is a cake in there from previous experience. If suddenly, people start saying to you that you can't get full cakes, we're going to look around at others who are not doing that, or reach back into our memories and say, "Hmmm. Your half-invisible cakes are bullshit."
    Let me quote your Cake analogy, as you've clearly forgotten what you said:

    JinTypeNoir wrote:
    That's like showing people a full cake and then when they buy it, only giving them half, saying that the other half became invisible and charging for each piece to become visible. Who would be taken in by a stupid trick like that?
    You were clearly saying that publishers advertise a game that includes the DLC, when it actually requires additional payment - a bait-and-switch, if you will.

    THAT'S NOT WHAT'S HAPPENING.
    I did not forget what I said, I looked at it while I replied to you make sure I didn't use misleading language.

    Showing people a full cake, in this case, is analogy for what used to be a full game. It's the expectation of what you get when you buy a cake. Only giving them half is analogy for what is happening now.

    I think such interpretations only happen when being ungenerous and deliberately provoking argument. You made an interpretation of my analogy that only a blithering idiot would claim is happening; I interpreted your intention to be rabble-rousing for the sake of making someone look ridiculous with specious reasoning.

    All those cake metaphors afterwards were delicious and appetizing demonstrations of your point of view, but an analogy or metaphor can be interpreted multiple ways. I could easily take all your stuff and extrapolate them into the most ridiculous interpretations. This is not really arguing, but rhetorical wankery. Let's not do that; it doesn't lead anywhere. I say, "That's not what I meant," you say, "Well that's how I interpreted it." Whatever.

    Rather than continue Cake Wars in The Icing Strikes Back, I'd like to hear what on Earth you were trying to get at with that on-disc downloads vs. Sim City always online comparison.

    BTW, I could not disagree more about your last comment about Metacritic and cutting out content leading to a weaker game. In any creative endeavor, cutting out stuff that doesn't work is a fundamental piece of good design. I am further skeptical of the design sense of a team who might say that a piece of downloadable shmuckarack is so because it didn't work in the original game. Bloated game design became quite a problem in the PS2 days and it's only gotten worse.

    Some of Wind Waker's cut dungeons turned into Twilight Princess dungeons. Some of Final Fantasy VII's cut characters and scenarios were used in VIII. In the case of Final Fantasy, this is a far healthier development approach that could have helped Square Enix develop more games this generation. In the case of Wind Waker, do you think we would not be perfectly reasonable if we were upset about a hypothetical situation where Nintendo charged for dungeons they couldn't finish on time?
  • Madder-Max 5 May 2013 07:51:12 11,900 posts
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    Um ahem if I may. For what is worth, on disc dlc is like having a basic sky or virgin tv package and then paying to unlock extra services which are already there such as sports, movies etc to have the full package.

    99 problems and being ginger is one

  • PazJohnMitch 5 May 2013 08:04:08 9,552 posts
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    Madder-Max wrote:
    Um ahem if I may. For what is worth, on disc dlc is like having a basic sky or virgin tv package and then paying to unlock extra services which are already there such as sports, movies etc to have the full package.
    That is pretty much my take on it as well.
  • MrTomFTW Moderator 5 May 2013 08:15:47 41,484 posts
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    People were using hacks to find cut out pieces of game long before this generation.

    A good example would be that extra dungeon in Wind Waker. These days they could finish it off during the latter stage of development/after launch and have it as DLC.

    Follow me on Twitter: @MrTom

  • PazJohnMitch 5 May 2013 08:16:07 9,552 posts
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    Penguin and JTN I think you are both not realising the differences between Western and Japanese (Capcom) games.

    Like Penguin's example of AC2 there have been quite a few cases where western games have had poor levels cut out which have then been sold later as DLC. (I personally quite like this as I would rather play the shorter game without the shit bit in it).

    JTN's complaint seems to be with Capcom who have released a number of fighting games where half the characters are greyed out and have to be paid for as DLC. They were fully integrated into the game and clearly just sectioned out to earn extra cash.

    JTN's example is a worse situation and is like EA releasing FIFA 14 without Messi been a playable character unless you pay an extra 5. (Shit I have just given them an idea). Thankfully this is actually less common.
  • Arrr9 5 May 2013 08:25:21 459 posts
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    TheMilkman wrote:
    Anyone that says the gameplay in Bioshock Infinite is poor should never be allowed to play an fps again as they don't understand them properly.

    And the 360 controller and the dualshock are both good pads. That seems to be an unpopular opinion here as it seems everyone thinks one is shit and one is ace.
    I understand first person shooty games fine. Much as Infinite has some lovely touches and has a lot to say for itself, in gaming terms I still have more fun shotgunning imps and cacodemons in Doom - the shooting part is just more fun with more weight and feedback to it.

    The 360 controller and dualshock are both good though, I'll agree on that.
  • JinTypeNoir 5 May 2013 08:40:09 4,392 posts
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    The discussion began because the unpopular opinion was about first day on-disc downloadable booby prizes, and then expanded to other forms in the course. My initial posts were limited to on-disc games.

    Also, Japanese publishers are not the only ones who do this, and there are quite a few Japanese publishers who don't practice this at all. It is not a Japanese vs. Western thing. It's about different approaches. Though I think Capcom is probably the most infamous, as they usually are when it comes to moneygrubbing shamelessness.

    Obviously, downloadable goombarahrahs are easier to accept when it hasn't been on the disc at release and is clearly developed afterward. I'm still suspicious though and 90% of the time I choose to support stuff like Dark Arisen, Tales of Graces F or GOTY editions so I can send a message that, of the two, I like expansion discs and complete editions better.

    A much healthier evolution of downloadable kvetches would have been if Microsoft had encouraged modding instead of micro-ass-drilling. Yes, I'm aware of the irony of one of the world's most infamously greedy companies encouraging such pro-consumer move, but it would have done a world of good for helping the sales longevity of the type of games that became this generation and is a much better deterrent against used game sales then some of the horrifying scenarios that have developed recently.

    I continue to hope in this coming generation modding descends from PCs and becomes a huge and widespread phenomenon on consoles that goes far beyond a Little Big Planet here and a Trackmania there. It's one of the main reasons you buy the PC versions of Bethesda games over their console counterparts, for instance.
  • Mola_Ram 5 May 2013 09:02:00 9,665 posts
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    why are we talking about cakes again
  • ibenam 5 May 2013 09:06:41 1,804 posts
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    The cake is a lie.
  • ibenam 5 May 2013 09:08:44 1,804 posts
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    Dammit you posted that as i was typing it out.
  • MrTomFTW Moderator 5 May 2013 09:25:43 41,484 posts
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    Follow me on Twitter: @MrTom

  • Mola_Ram 5 May 2013 09:42:07 9,665 posts
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  • JinTypeNoir 5 May 2013 10:01:40 4,392 posts
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    PenguingJim are you one of those people who thinks used games are killing the industry?

    PenguinJim wrote:
    Your analogy really was shit because you were saying that the developer/publisher was lying to the consumer - "showing people a full cake and then when they buy it, only giving them half, saying that the other half became invisible and charging for each piece to become visible" (although I've never heard of HALF a game being on-disc DLC, and think 1% might even be generous, although I'd be happy to be corrected).

    There's no wriggle room here, JTN - you clearly contended that the developer/publisher was falsely advertising their product. "saying that the other half became invisible" - wtf? How can this be interpreted any other way than deliberate misdirection (i.e. lying)?
    Dude, Penguin, give it up. You're taking my analogy literally, as if I'm saying that each case of on-disc downloadable creamiepoos is actually half the game every time. Reasonable interpretations of an analogy don't go the very last percentile like that. I've repeatedly explained to you that the analogy was about misrepresenting what your cake is and consumers being able to see through it because publishers are full of shit, not identifiable, class-action lawsuit, easily caught lying.

    Deliberate misdirection is closer (but not actually claiming the downloadable crickeybombs were part of the full game), yes. They are telling you that this stuff wouldn't be there if they couldn't charge for it due to budget and so on, but I think they are lying through their teeth a lot of the time and making excuses for trying to follow the leader with huge budgets. Nobody actually thinks they'd be insane enough to open themselves up for obvious lawsuits like you are suggesting my analogy says.

    The invisible pieces of cake represent the absurdity of the claim in the metaphor, not the actual means through which publishers are doing this.

    But what are you really saying?
    The whole point of using the cake analogy was to compare game development to baking a cake in that the consumer is typically not present during both processes and not being able to see the cake or game until the box is presented to you. The full cake was a metaphor for what we usually considered a full game before this generation.

    For instance, an RPG last generation which had alternate costumes and extra modes or dungeons as incentives to buy it against other RPGs now having that as downloadable cripecruleboos and that stuff is now missing unless you pay for it. Thus, the consumer ends up feeling like pieces of the cake they ordered are missing based on what they expect a game to have in terms of the amount volume included for free. When this stuff is on the disc on the very first day and you must pay it, that's like saying, "Pay to make these pieces of cake visible, even though other cake makers make them visible for free." It's there to demonstrate the absurdity.

    If you don't agree, understand where I'm coming from or still think my analogy is poo, let's drop it here, because we are obviously coming from different universes here and I don't think either you or I meant as disrespect to each other.

    What game are you talking about where on-disc DLC is being advertised as part of the main game?
    This is a situation you made up from my analogy. I keep telling you that it's not what I implied or meant by it.

    Consumers: Internet goes down! Internet isn't always reliable! Some people are still on dial-up!
    Developer: Ah, we have the means to put this DLC on disc! That should help out some of our customers with limited Internet access or slow Internet! :)
    Stupid consumers: You're lying, backstabbing, cheating thieves! This is only half a cake! RWAR!
    Mayor Quimby: Are these morons getting dumber or just louder?
    >_>
  • Deleted user 5 May 2013 10:36:08
    http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/284/529/e65.gif
  • bobdebob 5 May 2013 11:42:11 600 posts
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    I was going to weigh in (again) on Day 1 DlC and the such but I'm seem to have missed it.

    Don't you people sleep?
  • thedaveeyres 5 May 2013 11:56:05 11,973 posts
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    The last couple of pages in summary:

    Woof Bark Cakey Pig. Don't Send me back. Don't send me back t'dark place.

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