Indian Woman Dies in Irish Hospital Ater Being Denied Termination of Pregnancy Page 3

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  • Deleted user 28 November 2012 01:06:45
    GuiltySpark wrote:
    there isn't a hard and fast rule
    Surely by removing the option for abortion-by-choice you're basically making it a hard and fast rule?
  • reddevil93 28 Nov 2012 01:08:48 11,559 posts
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    Can't say I'd agree guiltysparks. Maybe on the 'just not wanting one' bit but I just don't see what good it does to bring a baby into the world if you're not going to be able to support it.

    Like for instance if someone got pregnant at 17 and would've been a drain on society would it not have even better for them to have an abortion go to college get a degree and have a baby later on in life when they can actually support one. I know that's a very simplistic way of putting it but I've seen situations like this occur.

  • kickerconspiracy 28 Nov 2012 01:08:51 495 posts
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    @meme

    That was just him trying to appear reasonable and open minded before he hit you with the right-wing bum gravy.

    Edited by kickerconspiracy at 01:09:08 28-11-2012
  • GuiltySpark 28 Nov 2012 01:08:53 6,355 posts
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    meme wrote:
    GuiltySpark wrote:
    there isn't a hard and fast rule
    Surely by removing the option for abortion-by-choice you're basically making it a hard and fast rule?
    That's not really what I meant.

    Get bent.

  • Deleted user 28 November 2012 01:11:09
    GuiltySpark wrote:
    meme wrote:
    GuiltySpark wrote:
    there isn't a hard and fast rule
    Surely by removing the option for abortion-by-choice you're basically making it a hard and fast rule?
    That's not really what I meant.
    That's how you put it across. "If you don't use them then accept the consequences."
  • GuiltySpark 28 Nov 2012 01:11:58 6,355 posts
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    reddevil93 wrote:
    Like for instance if someone got pregnant at 17 and would've been a drain on society would it not have even better for them to have an abortion go to college get a degree and have a baby later on in life when they can actually support one. I know that's a very simplistic way of putting it but I've seen situations like this occur.
    I just don't like the disposable attitude to unborn babies to be honest. It's not little unborn Timmy's fault that, for the majority, people can't use contraception properly.

    Get bent.

  • Deleted user 28 November 2012 01:13:33
    It's not necessarily the individual's fault either. Varying standards of sex education mean that some people still believe the withdrawal method works.
  • localnotail 28 Nov 2012 01:16:41 23,093 posts
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    What happens if you use contraception and it doesn't work? There are no fail-safe ways of not getting pregnant other than removing the capacity to reproduce permanently or just not having sex at all. Neither of these are options that many would choose.

    What if you know you are not able to give a good life to a baby at that point? And, although you know there are very nice people out there who might want to adopt your child, you are pretty sure that carrying the baby to term and then giving it up would be soul-destroying?

    Abortion should not be used as a form of contraception, but I do not believe it is fair to condemn anyone to a lifetime's responsibility for another human being when they have not consciously made the decision to create them.

    I'm sure this has the potential to develop into an argument, so I'll try to keep it plain. This is my opinion. Yours may differ, as is your right. I fully accept that the idea of termination of a pregnancy does (and should) repulse some people. I do not believe the answer to this is to remove the act of abortion in the case of unwanted pregnancy. Better contraceptive development and education is the key, then hopefully the need for it will be reduced.

    Although my child was very much planned, I've been pregnant twice before, despite sensible condom use and also with a coil/IUD in place. Neither of those occasions occurred at a time I would have been able to be a good mum - quite the opposite in fact. One of them ended naturally with a miscarriage, the other ended in a termination. Both of them were unfortunate accidents IMO, not divine providence.

    Having either of those children would have meant I would almost certainly never have had the chance to meet my current partner and have a baby with him. A baby I am definitely able to give a good life to, and I love more than anything in the world.

    For what it's worth, having been through it - my personal belief is that a baby is only a person with rights to protect once it gets to the point where it can survive apart from its mother. Until then, it's a part of her that she is growing, and she gets to make the decision as to what she feels is best for her, and it. It's not a decision lightly made, in my experience.

    We'll leave the legalisation of drugs for another day ;)

    Edited by localnotail at 01:19:26 28-11-2012

    A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

  • kickerconspiracy 28 Nov 2012 01:17:08 495 posts
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    @guiltyspark

    That's utter crap. I've known a couple of people who have been through abortion and none of them saw it as something they'd just do to deal with an inconvenience. I'm sure there are a few people out there with the attitude you suggest but by in large it's a horrendous situation and decision for anyone to have to make and causes a fuckton of anguish.

    Edited by kickerconspiracy at 01:17:31 28-11-2012
  • GuiltySpark 28 Nov 2012 01:17:54 6,355 posts
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    meme wrote:
    It's not necessarily the individual's fault either. Varying standards of sex education mean that some people still believe the withdrawal method works.
    Well any semblance of logic falls apart when you introduce idiots, I guess.

    Get bent.

  • Deleted user 28 November 2012 01:21:17
    GuiltySpark wrote:
    meme wrote:
    It's not necessarily the individual's fault either. Varying standards of sex education mean that some people still believe the withdrawal method works.
    Well any semblance of logic falls apart when you introduce idiots, I guess.
    Nothing to do with idiots, everything to do with media influence.

    Edited by meme at 01:21:29 28-11-2012
  • Deleted user 28 November 2012 01:26:12
    Basically, your position on the issue only really works when contraception is 100% reliable, or as close to it as dammit. And it isn't. Effectively, you're suggesting punishing the majority (people who use contraception but have it fail in some way and are in zero position to raise a child - a punishment on both the parents and child, ultimately) because of the minority (people who don't use contraception then abort whenever a pregnancy arrives) - and let's be clear, this is far, far in the minority.

    Edited by meme at 01:27:05 28-11-2012
  • GuiltySpark 28 Nov 2012 01:26:49 6,355 posts
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    @localnotail I'm not here to argue, this isn't the Wii U thread : )

    I'm trying to be as reasonable about my views as possible (I hope that's showing through), I haven't had to deal with anything like that as I'm relatively young and I'm looking at the situation through a completely different lens than you are, but it's obviously the only way I can look at it, really.

    It's definitely give and take, a blanket strategy will not work for every single case, it's true. It's just worrying about people's attitudes (clearly not yours), and I don't necessarily mean your generation, but teenagers nowadays. Like I said, once something becomes accepted we get desensitised to it, and it's a process that should be harrowing, given the implications about what you're doing.

    However, you obviously have more authority on the situation, so let's leave it at that : )

    Get bent.

  • GuiltySpark 28 Nov 2012 01:29:20 6,355 posts
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    meme wrote:
    GuiltySpark wrote:
    meme wrote:
    It's not necessarily the individual's fault either. Varying standards of sex education mean that some people still believe the withdrawal method works.
    Well any semblance of logic falls apart when you introduce idiots, I guess.
    Nothing to do with idiots, everything to do with media influence.
    "The Pull-out Puppy (from behind, doggy style) offers not only easy removal of the penis, but you get to come on her butt (if she agrees)."

    Only if she agrees eh, sounds reasonable I guess : )

    Edited by GuiltySpark at 01:29:42 28-11-2012

    Get bent.

  • Psychotext 28 Nov 2012 01:31:04 53,930 posts
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    Abortion is a genuinely unpleasant thing to go through (even the earliest form can be physically painful). Anyone who makes out it's a throwaway thing for the majority of people is either massively uninformed or is trying to push an agenda. See republican politicians in the US.

    Morning after pill is a different story obviously, but most people who have had contraception fail on them usually don't realise until a couple of months later.

    Part of the problem, of course, is that the media has had such fun portraying those who have had abortions as sluts or otherwise less than wholesome people. Though that's less of a problem in the UK (but not entirely).

    Edited by Psychotext at 01:33:21 28-11-2012
  • Deleted user 28 November 2012 01:34:48
    Morning after pill is an odd one. Could it be considered an abortion or contraception? At the time of taking the person would have no medical way to check if they're actually pregnant or not.
  • GuiltySpark 28 Nov 2012 01:38:58 6,355 posts
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    Psychotext wrote:
    Part of the problem, of course, is that the media has had such fun portraying those who have had abortions as sluts or otherwise less than wholesome people. Though that's less of a problem in the UK (but not entirely).
    Nah, of course I don't think that. If contraception failed on me and my (theoretical) girlfriend got pregnant, right now my feelings are that I would strive for her to keep it under nearly any situation.

    Hopefully that's enough to validate my opinion really. I'm not some kind of religious zealot trying to save the babies.

    Get bent.

  • localnotail 28 Nov 2012 01:45:41 23,093 posts
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    @GuiltySpark It's a difficult subject, and we both agree that we wish there were no abortions, we just differ on how to achieve this goal.

    @meme given that around 20% of conceptions apparently end in natural failure, the MAP is a grey area. That's not pleasant either. You men get off bloody lightly in these matters, shouldn't be whining about not liking condoms.

    Would you men be willing to take chemical contraceptives? Could we trust you?

    A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

  • Psychotext 28 Nov 2012 01:47:17 53,930 posts
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    We'd be religious about it. It's about the only thing we'd do well. :D
  • Deleted user 28 November 2012 01:47:47
    I'd take chemical contraceptives if they were available. I'll be getting the snip in a few years, as we've more or less decided we don't actually really want children at all (though I'm still hesitant to 100% rule it out for the immediate moment).
  • kickerconspiracy 28 Nov 2012 01:53:29 495 posts
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    There were medical trials for the male contraceptive injection near to where I live a couple of years ago and I was all up for volunteering, but the girlfriend forbade it.

    She wasn't up for me being a guinea pig.
  • GuiltySpark 28 Nov 2012 01:53:54 6,355 posts
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    localnotail wrote:
    Would you men be willing to take chemical contraceptives? Could we trust you?
    Hell yeah. It's like washing the dishes, men may take ten minutes a plate, but those plates are fucking clean, unlike women's cavalier attitude to washing up.

    ...What were we talking about again?

    Get bent.

  • localnotail 28 Nov 2012 01:59:56 23,093 posts
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    Psychotext wrote:
    We'd be religious about it. It's about the only thing we'd do well. :D
    I really hope that's true. I think it would work well in relationships, but we still need a barrier method for casual intercourse, for STDs. Or we develop some kind of vaginal bug-bomb douche to combat both sperm and germ. Preferably peppermint flavoured, to encourage foreplay.

    A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

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