Indian Woman Dies in Irish Hospital Ater Being Denied Termination of Pregnancy Page 2

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  • X201 27 Nov 2012 19:29:31 15,342 posts
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    Did the doctor involved forget the part about doing your all to preserve the life of the patient?

    He should have given her the abortion and dealt with the legal issues later.

    Hippocrates will be spinning in his grave.


    edit:typo

    Edited by X201 at 19:29:52 27-11-2012
  • mrpon 27 Nov 2012 19:36:31 28,887 posts
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    I notice MrTom didn't correct memes sig.

    Give yourself 5 or gig, you're worth it.

  • GuiltySpark 27 Nov 2012 19:37:43 6,382 posts
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    RobTheBuilder wrote:
    To me allowing children to be born when they are unwanted or parents are not ready to deal with them properly is just as cruel as abortion.
    That's a bit of a stretch! The only reason for an abortion is if the child is going to be extremely disabled and death is likely regardless.

    Get bent.

  • Deleted user 27 November 2012 19:38:09
    localnotail wrote:
    Surely now the Catholic Church is actually stopping its priests from abusing children, there is no need to keep having so many?
    TIL Nintendo is catholic.
  • MrTomFTW Moderator 27 Nov 2012 19:40:55 38,103 posts
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    mrpon wrote:
    I notice MrTom didn't correct memes sig.
    We don't have the power. Besides, I'm not the one with the family who all voted for Mitt Romney.

    Follow me on Twitter: @MrTom
    Voted by the community "Best mod" 2011, 2012 and 2013.

  • RobTheBuilder 27 Nov 2012 19:47:59 6,521 posts
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    @GuiltySpark I disagree. It isn't just about the life existing, it's about the quality of life that child will get.
    That's precisely why crime is linked to abortion.
  • Moot_Point 27 Nov 2012 19:53:12 4,041 posts
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    MrTomFTW wrote:
    mrpon wrote:
    I notice MrTom didn't correct memes sig.
    We don't have the power. Besides, I'm not the one with the family who all voted for Mitt Romney.
    So meme's signature is one of irony?

    ================================================================================

    mowgli wrote: I thought the 1 married the .2 and founded Islam?

  • Apollo 27 Nov 2012 20:18:38 523 posts
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    It's a woman's body. She should have the right to choose. My country's laws on this issue are archaic, bolstered by a waning Catholic influence, and need to be changed.
  • yupyup 27 Nov 2012 20:50:29 3,682 posts
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    The law certainly needs to be changed to allow for an abortion in the case of medical emergency. The fact that this woman died twenty years after the X case is particularly appalling.

    Regarding abortion by personal choice, if it went to a referendum tomorrow I still think it would be extremely close, there's still a lot of resistance to it. Personally I would be for it, but I remember being shown a book with photos of dead foetuses in religion class so I don't think it's a generation issue either.

    Hands Off Our Penises

  • GuiltySpark 27 Nov 2012 21:08:12 6,382 posts
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    RobTheBuilder wrote:
    @GuiltySpark I disagree. It isn't just about the life existing, it's about the quality of life that child will get.
    That's precisely why crime is linked to abortion.
    I completely understand, but if you've created life then you kind of have an obligation to y'know, not kill it. If you're pregnant, then it shouldn't be up to you, it should be out of your hands now. Only in extreme circumstances is death better than life.

    There is no right answer obvs. But this specific case is obviously an extreme case where compassion or whatever doesn't apply.

    Get bent.

  • Deleted user 27 November 2012 21:16:07
    "Abortion lowers crime" is an extremely slippery argument that inevitably leads towards eugenics and sterilisation, two things that haven't really had any factor in criminology for decades.
  • RobTheBuilder 27 Nov 2012 21:36:57 6,521 posts
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    @meme That's not actually the point, and I hope no one would argue for anything along the lines of sterilisation.

    Just making the point that there is a very strong link between legalised abortion and reductions in crime rates around 18 years later. Likewise banning abortion causes crime increase years later. Which demonstrates that lack of abortion options produces a number of children that are not looked after and not given a proper chance in life.

    The difference between legalising abortion and sterilisation is a huge one.
  • Deleted user 27 November 2012 21:42:55
    There's not a very strong link, there's a relatively spurious one that's mostly plucked out of the air. The main study from that comes from the Roe Vs Wade ruling in the US, comparing crime rates 20 or so years on and going "Crime is lower, therefore abortion lowers crime". But it hugely overlooks that the 1980s was also the "war on crime" era which has so many factors in reducing crime (massive increase in police presence, massive increase in jail sentences, changes in sentencing such as three strike rules etc) it's going to be a literal impossibility to assign any percentages to anything. Plus there's the point that people in impoverished situations with no money and an environment that fosters crime couldn't, at that point, afford a legal abortion in the first place.

    Edited by meme at 21:46:22 27-11-2012
  • GuiltySpark 27 Nov 2012 21:52:57 6,382 posts
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    You also get The Terminator 2 ideal of killing someone before they can commit crime or create Skynet. What if we kill our John Connor?

    Get bent.

  • Khanivor 27 Nov 2012 21:59:18 40,703 posts
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    Not in the real world you don't.
  • Rusty_M 27 Nov 2012 22:04:05 4,676 posts
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    Oh My God, MrTomFTW is censoring the entire thread. We must have our say. We will not be silenced. My message is this:



    Edited by MrTomFTW at 22:05:26 27-11-2012

    The world is going mad. Me? I'm doing fine.

  • Bremenacht 27 Nov 2012 22:37:23 18,174 posts
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    Edited by MrTomFTW at 22:37:26 27-11-2012
  • Dave_McCoy 27 Nov 2012 22:39:39 2,775 posts
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    Should have done it in italics. :)
  • RobTheBuilder 27 Nov 2012 22:40:14 6,521 posts
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    @meme the study in Freakenomics uses data from across the US and shows that abortion counted for a large chunk of crime drops. Places that legalised abortion earlier got the crime drops earlier.

    It's far more well thought out than you suggest.

    Also there are studies from Romania as to how crime went up 18 years after abortion was banned.

    Edited by RobTheBuilder at 22:41:12 27-11-2012
  • Deleted user 27 November 2012 22:56:47
    Yes, I'm referring to that exact study, the one by Levitt and Donohue. We used it fairly heavily as part of crime data statistics in my criminal justice class. The drops in earlier states don't actually correlate, and in fact disappear altogether when you look at crime rates as per head rather than raw numbers - confirmation bias is basically the explanation there. Not least to mention that they used flawed computations with regards to crimes committed by people who were born slightly before the Roe v Wade ruling (when worked out properly, changes Levitt's overall findings by over two-thirds).

    That's even ignoring the fact that it's still literally an unknowable number. State-to-state differences in the law, changes in how crimes are reported and dealt with, epidemics like gang warfare in LA or the huge surge in crack cocaine and crystal meth, all these chaotic, unquantifiable statistics, all make any "legalized abortion caused a thirty percent drop in crime" statements irrelevant.

    Romania's not a great example to use either, considering the whole country was in massive political turmoil, and eventually went through revolution.

    Edited by meme at 23:04:48 27-11-2012
  • Bremenacht 27 Nov 2012 23:03:53 18,174 posts
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    Dave_McCoy wrote:
    Should have done it in italics. :)
    I tried editing it but then I realised I'm a bit stupid.

    Edited by MrTomFTW at 23:52:19 27-11-2012
  • localnotail 27 Nov 2012 23:11:42 23,093 posts
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    GuiltySparkbut if you've created life then you kind of have an obligation to y'know, not kill it. If you're pregnant, then it shouldn't be up to you, it should be out of your hands now.
    So the (un)happy chance that sperm and egg should be in the right place at the right time for fertilisation to occur means that potential person not yet formed has the right to override all the rights of the potential parents already in existence?

    How do you feel about the millions of potential people denied life with every period and each tissue binned or shamefaced wipe of spunk upon the curtain?

    I wish we didn't need abortion, but I know personally that it has the capacity to make the lives that already exist better, whereas unwanted pregnancies can make life much worse.

    Edited by localnotail at 23:15:26 27-11-2012

    A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

  • kickerconspiracy 27 Nov 2012 23:15:17 495 posts
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    I just wiped an entire civilisation on my curtains.

    I should be stoned to death with stale crumpets.
  • Deleted user 27 November 2012 23:15:26
    I'll clarify that I'm pro-choice - I believe it's a woman's right to abort and that simply getting pregnant doesn't give them any obligation to see it through. But calling for the legalisation of abortion citing that it lowers crime is flawed at best, dangerous at worst, and something even the Freakonomics guys directly advise against in the paper.
  • RobTheBuilder 27 Nov 2012 23:49:13 6,521 posts
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    @meme Oh I agree there, I wouldn't say it's a reason alone, nor that other things wouldn't affect it. Just think that it having an effect on those figures at all suggests that lack of abortion access creates children who aren't cared for. Which for me is a good reason (among others) for legalised abortion, as no child should ever grow up unloved or cared for, especially when we as a species are dangerously close to overpopulating to the extent of damaging the world.

    Edited by RobTheBuilder at 23:51:12 27-11-2012
  • Deleted user 28 November 2012 00:02:01
    Yeah, I agree with that. Unwanted children either puts pressure on the already overcrowded foster/adoption systems, or worse has the child growing up in an unhealthy environment, so to that extent legalising abortion is an option. But I do think that it's an option to be treated almost as a last resort, or at least a side-option secondary to rooting out environmental concerns and raising education and standards of things like birth control etc. That's one of the key reasons I dislike the Freakonomics report after reading about the effects of it recently - for a time it shifted the focus to where some people were almost calling for China-esque controlled family numbers - sort of a "destroy the criminals and we won't have crime" ideology rather than a much more sensible and helpful "let's look at why they're criminals in the first place" one. Hate the sin, not the sinner, and all that.
  • Deleted user 28 November 2012 00:05:15
    On a somewhat related note I watched a documentary, The Queen of Versailles, all about some stupidly rich family who "suffered" at the hands of economic depression. The wife originally only wanted to have one kid, but then she married the millionaire and they could afford nannies, so she proceeded to have seven of them because she didn't have to raise them herself.

    I mean, they're not living in poverty and it's arguable that it's not a "dangerous" environment, but Christ, it made me want to punch the screen.
  • RobTheBuilder 28 Nov 2012 00:12:55 6,521 posts
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    @meme jeez
  • GuiltySpark 28 Nov 2012 00:41:37 6,382 posts
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    localnotail wrote:
    GuiltySparkbut if you've created life then you kind of have an obligation to y'know, not kill it. If you're pregnant, then it shouldn't be up to you, it should be out of your hands now.
    So the (un)happy chance that sperm and egg should be in the right place at the right time for fertilisation to occur means that potential person not yet formed has the right to override all the rights of the potential parents already in existence?

    How do you feel about the millions of potential people denied life with every period and each tissue binned or shamefaced wipe of spunk upon the curtain?

    I wish we didn't need abortion, but I know personally that it has the capacity to make the lives that already exist better, whereas unwanted pregnancies can make life much worse.
    It's a hard decision, like most ethical choices there isn't a hard and fast rule and only complete idiots only see only one side.

    There are enough adequate ways to avoid getting pregnant (mistakes obviously happen, I know) so if you don't want a baby, use them. If you don't use them then accept the consequences (the consequences being that you've created another person.. I can think of worse consequences to be honest). Abortions should never, ever be commonplace nor should they be used because "you don't want a baby".

    I'm not saying these are your views, I'm just saying it generally. Once things become socially accepted then it's a slippery slope, aka the legalisation of drugs.

    Get bent.

  • Psychotext 28 Nov 2012 00:59:12 54,155 posts
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    So are you basically fucked if a "mistake" happens then?
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