The Scottish Fitba Thread v3.0 Page 4

  • Page

    of 10 First / Last

  • Vortex808 22 Nov 2012 15:06:10 7,293 posts
    Seen 6 hours ago
    Registered 6 years ago
    Gaol wrote:
    In any case, it wasn't these fans that brought us down, or even the SFA/SPL - it was HMRC taking forever to bring this tax case to a resolution that made us unsellable; and I still think Murray has a lot to answer for. If he was so confident of the tax case he wouldn't have sold us to a known conman.
    This is a very good point. I can certainly agree that it's HMRC and the Murray regime to blame for the current situation, I tried to make that point before, but Aaron disagreed.

    It's certainly not the other fans, or the SPL/SFA who brought this about. The SFA and SPL did try to help a bit to get the new club back into the normal league structure quickly, albeit by going about it in a typically cack-handed fashion.

    If Murray and co hadn't decided to start using EBT's years back and the HMRC hadn't taken so long this could have all been avoided before the shit really hit the fan. If celtic did indeed pay the tax on juninho's EBT as someone suggested, then there must have been some cause for concern raised to them before hand.

    I certainly feel that Murray sold the club to try to avoid being the one who dragged them into the mire, despite most of the issues that came to a head recently stemming from his tenure.
  • AaronTurner 22 Nov 2012 15:18:39 7,785 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    I don't disagree that hmrc and Murray hold blame, of course they do. However, there was (and still is to a certain extent) this steadfast belief from many quarters that we were guilty before we were given a fair trial. The publicity, the blogs, the fans, no matter what the club said they could not bat away this notion that we were guilty and we were culpable for 10s of millions of pounds.

    This myth became fact, we were campaigned against, investors were frightened so wouldn't come forward. Murray was in an unenviable position with the bank where pressure was applied to sell to the first bidder (i'm sure he didn't resist too much). Lloyds could have removed funding from his entire business, they threatened him and he caved in and sold to Whyte.

    Whyte mishandled the situation as badly as possible but if we didn't have that case hanging over us I doubt he would have stopped paying tax. The fact is we couldn't get funding because of the case and the overall assumption of our guilt.
  • AaronTurner 22 Nov 2012 15:21:21 7,785 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    I guess I find it hard to take that so many fans now move onto the moral implications of the ebts. It's hard to accept that from people who assume guilt.

    That and the fact that now people are suggesting they didn't call us cheats, liars and whatever else. They didn't assume guilt, which is cowardly and shite.
  • Gaol 22 Nov 2012 16:01:53 2,423 posts
    Seen 14 hours ago
    Registered 7 years ago
    You can't expect these fans of other clubs to give a shit, they just see Goliath taken down and slot the rest in to their mindset.

    We will be back, with no baggage and a huge support. Might take years to get back to the top, but will be all the sweeter when it comes.

    And it's WHEN not IF.
  • grey_matters 22 Nov 2012 17:52:57 3,796 posts
    Seen 5 hours ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    How close is Scotland to getting 2 automatic qualifying places to the Champions league group stages? Can Celtic boost the co-efficient enough this year? There could be an interesting dynamic in the top league by the time Rangers return if another team (or teams) get a prolonged run of big games with the extra money/support that would result.
  • Pompeybear 22 Nov 2012 18:00:46 454 posts
    Seen 11 months ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    @grey_matters Grey matters , no chance any other team will get close, Aberdeen,Motherwell,Dundee united,Hearts,Hibs and St Mirren are all reported to have financial problems especially Hearts (when is there 10point deduction for not paying tax? or shall we wait to see the outcome?) No team can get near Celtic at minute or for forseable future. Only teams who ever added to the co efficent were Rangers and celtic.

    The race for second maybe the only thing of any interest but judging by attendances it doesn't seem to be a great crowd puller.
  • Pompeybear 22 Nov 2012 18:02:29 454 posts
    Seen 11 months ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    Vortex808 wrote:
    Gaol wrote:
    In any case, it wasn't these fans that brought us down, or even the SFA/SPL - it was HMRC taking forever to bring this tax case to a resolution that made us unsellable; and I still think Murray has a lot to answer for. If he was so confident of the tax case he wouldn't have sold us to a known conman.
    This is a very good point. I can certainly agree that it's HMRC and the Murray regime to blame for the current situation, I tried to make that point before, but Aaron disagreed.

    It's certainly not the other fans, or the SPL/SFA who brought this about. The SFA and SPL did try to help a bit to get the new club back into the normal league structure quickly, albeit by going about it in a typically cack-handed fashion.

    If Murray and co hadn't decided to start using EBT's years back and the HMRC hadn't taken so long this could have all been avoided before the shit really hit the fan. If celtic did indeed pay the tax on juninho's EBT as someone suggested, then there must have been some cause for concern raised to them before hand.

    I certainly feel that Murray sold the club to try to avoid being the one who dragged them into the mire, despite most of the issues that came to a head recently stemming from his tenure.
    Most sensible thing you have written all day.
  • Armoured_Bear 22 Nov 2012 18:13:26 11,340 posts
    Seen 6 hours ago
    Registered 3 years ago
    dufftownallan wrote:
    Armoured_Bear wrote:
    FFS just STFU,get on with football and you'll be back where you think you belong the season after next.
    hehe, division one?! ;o)
    No chance, there will be a new SPL/SPL2 setup with special invite for poor, picked on Rangers.

    XBL : ecosse011172
    PSN : ecosse_011172
    NNID : armoured_bear

  • grey_matters 22 Nov 2012 18:18:56 3,796 posts
    Seen 5 hours ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    Pompeybear wrote:
    @grey_matters Grey matters , no chance any other team will get close, Aberdeen,Motherwell,Dundee united,Hearts,Hibs and St Mirren are all reported to have financial problems especially Hearts (when is there 10point deduction for not paying tax? or shall we wait to see the outcome?) No team can get near Celtic at minute or for forseable future. Only teams who ever added to the co efficent were Rangers and celtic.

    The race for second maybe the only thing of any interest but judging by attendances it doesn't seem to be a great crowd puller.
    I mean that if Celtic can boost the co-efficient enough to get two group places then second place in the league becomes a major chance to get your house in order financially (to say nothing about the experience gained) for a coupe of years before Rangers return. It could be good for the league as there could be 2 or 3 teams hunting down Celtic once Rangers get back to the top.

    Edited by grey_matters at 18:21:33 22-11-2012
  • Pompeybear 22 Nov 2012 18:29:16 454 posts
    Seen 11 months ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    Armoured_Bear wrote:
    Rangers fans with their anger and sense of injustice can go f*ck themselves, the idea that they've been hard done by is utterly laughable. They basically ruined Scottish football by spending way outwith their means (decision or not, they got away with avoiding millions in tax that other clubs around them didn't). This coupled with Bosman was the reason that so many clubs started bringing in expensive mediocre foreigners and shitting on youth development.
    Just compare the SPL pre-Murray with it nowadays.

    When Rangers went into liquidation (completely of their own doing) the SPL and SFA did everything in their powers and beyond to stop them having to go through what any other club in their situation would and their fans have never stopped whingeing.
    FFS just STFU,get on with football and you'll be back where you think you belong the season after next.
    As Gretna and Livingston fans how they feel, eh.
    Lets get back to facts again shall we?

    *The last set of accounts before the liquadation showed 18 mil in debt. This debt had dropped from 50mil so were making progress. We hadn't signed a player for 2 out 3 seasons so you saying we spent beyond are means is balls. Whyte took over after that set of accounts and due to being the only investor willing to take a punt on a club threatened with a huge tax bill(that didn't happen). We all know what happened after he got his hands on the club,Borrowed money against the club to purchase it so basically left us fucked. How he got through all the SPL checks is beyond me.

    *So now the Bosman rule is a problem that we created??

    *Rangers did not put themselves into liquadation, it was the adminastrators thinking we were going to get clobbered with a 100 mil tax bill.

    *The SPL offered a deal of stay in our league but take points deductions, transfer embargo (taken to court , proved illegal) no euro football and basically be there to make up the numbers and keep sky sweet so they could still televise old firm derbies.

    Glad green told them to ram it, Am more than happy to take the punishment of starting 3rd etc if it was warranted.

    At the end of day, no matter what facts are presented to you , you still feel that we are a bunch of cunts.
  • Pompeybear 22 Nov 2012 18:30:30 454 posts
    Seen 11 months ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    Armoured_Bear wrote:
    dufftownallan wrote:
    Armoured_Bear wrote:
    FFS just STFU,get on with football and you'll be back where you think you belong the season after next.
    hehe, division one?! ;o)
    No chance, there will be a new SPL/SPL2 setup with special invite for poor, picked on Rangers.
    Green has already said he will tell them to ram it. Rightly so. No special treatment for us thank you.
  • President_Weasel 22 Nov 2012 18:34:03 9,452 posts
    Seen 7 hours ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    Apart from the newco being fast-tracked back into the league setup without the requisite two years of accounts, of course.
    But that doesn't count as special treatment - to a vocal section of the Rangers support, that counts as being picked on.
  • AaronTurner 22 Nov 2012 18:46:46 7,785 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    President_Weasel wrote:
    Apart from the newco being fast-tracked back into the league setup without the requisite two years of accounts, of course.
    But that doesn't count as special treatment - to a vocal section of the Rangers support, that counts as being picked on.
    Sorry, let me get my head around this. Are you slating Rangers fans because of their reaction to a hypothetical situation that you've made up in your head?

    Wow.
  • AaronTurner 22 Nov 2012 18:48:32 7,785 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    grey_matters wrote:
    Pompeybear wrote:
    @grey_matters Grey matters , no chance any other team will get close, Aberdeen,Motherwell,Dundee united,Hearts,Hibs and St Mirren are all reported to have financial problems especially Hearts (when is there 10point deduction for not paying tax? or shall we wait to see the outcome?) No team can get near Celtic at minute or for forseable future. Only teams who ever added to the co efficent were Rangers and celtic.

    The race for second maybe the only thing of any interest but judging by attendances it doesn't seem to be a great crowd puller.
    I mean that if Celtic can boost the co-efficient enough to get two group places then second place in the league becomes a major chance to get your house in order financially (to say nothing about the experience gained) for a coupe of years before Rangers return. It could be good for the league as there could be 2 or 3 teams hunting down Celtic once Rangers get back to the top.
    Pretty sure this season was the last that our uefa cup final run counts towards so Celtic would have to get pretty far to make up that shortfall.
  • dgb 22 Nov 2012 19:41:17 657 posts
    Seen 5 months ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    AaronTurner wrote:
    President_Weasel wrote:
    Apart from the newco being fast-tracked back into the league setup without the requisite two years of accounts, of course.
    But that doesn't count as special treatment - to a vocal section of the Rangers support, that counts as being picked on.
    Sorry, let me get my head around this. Are you slating Rangers fans because of their reaction to a hypothetical situation that you've made up in your head?

    Wow.
    Love it.

    I'm a Rangers fan and I'm loving this new era for the club. This third division adventure is great fun, the football is beginning to (slowly) get better. The atmosphere at Ibrox this season is amazing (especially during the Motherwell cup game). I rarely even look at SPL results.
    I think that not having any other teams to hate has helped some of our more extreme fans and reminded them that it's all about football.

    I'm not surprised that so many small minded fans of other Scottish clubs hate Rangers. We have been such a successful club that its inevitable we are hated. Look at any other league in the world, the most successful teams are disliked by the rest. Human nature innit?

    Sure it looks now that HMRC fucked us over and serious questions must be answered about that but I for one, am enjoying football again.

    Some Rangers fans on here would do well to avoid getting riled up by the obvious trolling being done.

    Leave them to their "big league". I reckon for the moment we're better off without them.
  • Pompeybear 22 Nov 2012 19:43:56 454 posts
    Seen 11 months ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    President_Weasel wrote:
    Apart from the newco being fast-tracked back into the league setup without the requisite two years of accounts, of course.
    But that doesn't count as special treatment - to a vocal section of the Rangers support, that counts as being picked on.
    Where the hell did this shit come from?
  • Pompeybear 22 Nov 2012 19:47:53 454 posts
    Seen 11 months ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    dgb wrote:
    AaronTurner wrote:
    President_Weasel wrote:
    Apart from the newco being fast-tracked back into the league setup without the requisite two years of accounts, of course.
    But that doesn't count as special treatment - to a vocal section of the Rangers support, that counts as being picked on.
    Sorry, let me get my head around this. Are you slating Rangers fans because of their reaction to a hypothetical situation that you've made up in your head?

    Wow.
    Love it.

    I'm a Rangers fan and I'm loving this new era for the club. This third division adventure is great fun, the football is beginning to (slowly) get better. The atmosphere at Ibrox this season is amazing (especially during the Motherwell cup game). I rarely even look at SPL results.
    I think that not having any other teams to hate has helped some of our more extreme fans and reminded them that it's all about football.

    I'm not surprised that so many small minded fans of other Scottish clubs hate Rangers. We have been such a successful club that its inevitable we are hated. Look at any other league in the world, the most successful teams are disliked by the rest. Human nature innit?

    Sure it looks now that HMRC fucked us over and serious questions must be answered about that but I for one, am enjoying football again.

    Some Rangers fans on here would do well to avoid getting riled up by the obvious trolling being done.

    Leave them to their "big league". I reckon for the moment we're better off without them.
    Seconded , Can't believe I got sucked into arguments with people whose attitude is 'you are cunts' .
  • Mekanik 22 Nov 2012 21:12:58 3,594 posts
    Seen 6 hours ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    Actually, most of you Rangers fans on here have come here with the opinion that everyone thinks you are cunts and are doing your utmost to prove everyone right.

    For the record, I think the ebt scheme broke the sfa/spl rules but you won't be found guilty of it.

    For the record I couldn't give 2 fucks what happened to your team. No sympathy is given to any team in financial trouble, least of all one of the, previously, biggest earners in Scottish football.

    You'll recover and be back. Your fans might, as said, chill out a bit and enjoy the football again for what it is.

    All the crap between Celtic and rangers might even have mellowed out by the time rangers get back in the top league, whatever that will be by then.

    Your rise from the bottom league up will surely help secure the financial future of MANY lower league teams.

    You will be forced to field Scottish players instead of buying up the good ones from other teams and having them sit on the bench or buy shit, expensive foreign players. Again a benefit to scottish football overall.

    The only 2 bad things put of this is the (slightly justified but not completely) animosity towards EVERYONE not a rangers fan because you assume we all hate you that much and also that Celtic couldn't join you in div 3 and allow the spl teams to actually get some money under them to help support them through the coming years.

    I, for one, wish the spl voting structure could be changed or fixed so that chairmen of spl clubs in general couldn't hold Scottish football to ransom over self centred concerns. Increase league sizes (spl in particular) an spread the wealth in a MUCH fairer way.

    Edited by Mekanik at 21:15:08 22-11-2012

    Edited by Mekanik at 21:16:18 22-11-2012
  • Mekanik 22 Nov 2012 21:19:35 3,594 posts
    Seen 6 hours ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    Oh, and the first page of this thread was mellow. The next 3 pages are filled with bile and shite from both sides of the fence.

    When emotions like that are triggered so easily can't anyone see why people are happy to be rid of one half of the old firm and why they would be happily rid of the other?

    You don't see that kind of crap between most other fans of teams in Scotland.
  • Armoured_Bear 22 Nov 2012 21:23:33 11,340 posts
    Seen 6 hours ago
    Registered 3 years ago
    Mekanik wrote:
    I, for one, wish the spl voting structure could be changed or fixed so that chairmen of spl clubs in general couldn't hold Scottish football to ransom over self centred concerns. Increase league sizes (spl in particular) an spread the wealth in a MUCH fairer way.

    Edited by Mekanik at 21:15:08 22-11-2012
    Couldn't agree more.

    XBL : ecosse011172
    PSN : ecosse_011172
    NNID : armoured_bear

  • AaronTurner 22 Nov 2012 21:54:03 7,785 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    I really don't see, looking back over this thread, how any rangers fan has acted like a cunt. Do you really think that we aren't going to be angry after what we've been through? Do you really think we wouldn't talk about it? Everyone else has had their years of talking up the big tax case and the cheating, I think you have to be prepared for the other side of that now, if not then leave. Its not rangers fans that have been breaking out the insults.

    I'll spell this out so you have an understanding of how angry we feel. Without the big tax case hmrc wouldn't have had a majority vote in the CVA deal but for whatever reason it was included. Hmrc chose to liquidate rangers although now it seems that tjhe majority vote they had was non-existant. Essentially we were liquidated by a phantom debt. And people suggest we should just shrug it off? That is ridiculous.
  • dgb 22 Nov 2012 22:10:46 657 posts
    Seen 5 months ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    AaronTurner wrote:
    I really don't see, looking back over this thread, how any rangers fan has acted like a cunt. Do you really think that we aren't going to be angry after what we've been through? Do you really think we wouldn't talk about it? Everyone else has had their years of talking up the big tax case and the cheating, I think you have to be prepared for the other side of that now, if not then leave. Its not rangers fans that have been breaking out the insults.

    I'll spell this out so you have an understanding of how angry we feel. Without the big tax case hmrc wouldn't have had a majority vote in the CVA deal but for whatever reason it was included. Hmrc chose to liquidate rangers although now it seems that tjhe majority vote they had was non-existant. Essentially we were liquidated by a phantom debt. And people suggest we should just shrug it off? That is ridiculous.
    Aaron, as you know I'm also a rangers fan.
    Weren't HMRC voting on the CVA deal because of Craig Whyte's failure to pay tax?
    I didn't think that the big tax case was a factor in that particular episode.
    It was, however a huge factor in why nobody would buy the club out of administration.

    We've been fucked as far as I'm concerned (mainly by HMRC) but lets move on and let all the "big league" teams enjoy themselves without Rangers.
  • AaronTurner 22 Nov 2012 22:22:37 7,785 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    The debt to hmrc included in the CVA was around 70m
  • dufftownallan 22 Nov 2012 23:24:34 4,725 posts
    Seen 6 days ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    Mekanik wrote:
    I, for one, wish the spl voting structure could be changed or fixed so that chairmen of spl clubs in general couldn't hold Scottish football to ransom over self centred concerns. Increase league sizes (spl in particular) an spread the wealth in a MUCH fairer way.
    Edited by Mekanik at 21:15:08 22-11-2012
    this is the crux of the matter; dgb, we're not "small minded" and we aren't "hating" indiscriminately. us non old firm fans have had to sit by for the last two decades watching celtic and rangers strangle the life out of our league for their own nefarious ends, both clubs have used their considerable size and clout to control spl matters by virtue of the 11-1 voting rule, both clubs have used their financial position to snap up the most promising players from our clubs and then failed to nurture them by giving preference to expensive imports. both clubs have time and again bemoaned the restrictions of playing in scotland and have courted moves to a bigger arena whilst insisting that us wee diddy clubs couldn't survive without you's.

    any successful team is going to have it's detractors, but especially so if they've done everything in their power to ensure the odds are stacked in their favour.

    rest assured you lot, sympathy would be in short supply if it were celtic in this position, and it's nothing to do with you fans, we're on YOUR side, it's the institutions we hate, it's the governance of the scottish game that allowed the OF to bully it's way to sustaining it's dominance and it's the management of both celtic and rangers who have been SHOWN to use dodgy methods to maintain their competitive advantage.

    if there's any glee shown in rangers demise then it's that the status quo has FINALLY been broken; there's talk of league reconstruction now, there's less OF bile kicking about, there's a window of opportunity now open for fundamental change to happen to the game in scotland which is a situation that would never have occurred with rangers still in the big league.

    it's a shame for fans of rangers, it really is, but to use a pained analogy, youre like a guy on a street winning the lottery, giving fuck all to anyone in the street and then moaning about the people on that street when they don't give a fuck when youre broke and destitute. you've all tried to have your cake and eat it, it's little wonder there isn't a whole bunch of sympathy kicking about for your club. and if you think that's wrong, did any of you give a flying fuck when livi had to restart from the bottom league? doubt it.
  • Vortex808 23 Nov 2012 00:21:12 7,293 posts
    Seen 6 hours ago
    Registered 6 years ago
    dufftownallan wrote:

    we're not "small minded" and we aren't "hating" indiscriminately. us non old firm fans have had to sit by for the last two decades watching celtic and rangers strangle the life out of our league for their own nefarious ends, both clubs have used their considerable size and clout to control spl matters by virtue of the 11-1 voting rule, both clubs have used their financial position to snap up the most promising players from our clubs and then failed to nurture them by giving preference to expensive imports. both clubs have time and again bemoaned the restrictions of playing in scotland and have courted moves to a bigger arena whilst insisting that us wee diddy clubs couldn't survive without you.


    rest assured, sympathy would be in short supply if it were celtic in this position, and it's nothing to do with you fans, we're on YOUR side, it's the institutions we hate, it's the governance of the scottish game that allowed the OF to bully it's way to sustaining it's dominance and it's the management of both celtic and rangers who have been SHOWN to use dodgy methods to maintain their competitive advantage.

    if there's any glee shown in rangers demise then it's that the status quo has FINALLY been broken; there's talk of league reconstruction now, there's less OF bile kicking about, there's a window of opportunity now open for fundamental change to happen to the game in scotland which is a situation that would never have occurred with rangers still in the big league.

    it's a shame for fans of rangers, it really is,

    you've all tried to have your cake and eat it, it's little wonder there isn't a whole bunch of sympathy kicking about for your club. and if you think that's wrong, did any of you give a flying fuck when livi had to restart from the bottom league? doubt it.
    Very much this.
  • AaronTurner 23 Nov 2012 06:38:40 7,785 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    Hmm, post starts out claiming to be against organisations but on the side of the fans. Post ends up berating the fans.
  • AaronTurner 23 Nov 2012 07:46:12 7,785 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    And by the way I don't think Rangers fans are looking for sympathy. We're angry that there has been this assumption of guilt before a trial. I think the lack of remorse is very telling. I'm not asking for sympathy but I do think people need to take a good look at themselves and ask themselves if they are in fact a major part of Scotlands problem.
  • dufftownallan 23 Nov 2012 08:48:37 4,725 posts
    Seen 6 days ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    AaronTurner wrote:
    I do think people need to take a good look at themselves and ask themselves if they are in fact a major part of Scotlands problem.
    you first.
  • AaronTurner 23 Nov 2012 09:26:32 7,785 posts
    Seen 8 hours ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    I do, what makes you think I'm a major part of Scotlands problem out of interest?
  • President_Weasel 23 Nov 2012 10:35:58 9,452 posts
    Seen 7 hours ago
    Registered 10 years ago
    you're a major part of the problem with this thread.
  • Page

    of 10 First / Last

Log in or register to reply