The Scottish Fitba Thread v3.0 Page 2

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  • AaronTurner 21 Nov 2012 12:35:28 7,591 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    The first one mixed with a view that scottish teams should play in scotland and we shouldnt be allowed to cherry pick which leagues we enter.

    I dont even like swansea being in the premier league.
    Yeah we're cheats....

    Do they let you outside much?
  • Vortex808 21 Nov 2012 12:44:32 6,933 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    nickthegun wrote:
    The first one mixed with a view that scottish teams should play in scotland and we shouldnt be allowed to cherry pick which leagues we enter.

    I dont even like swansea being in the premier league.
    Yeah we're cheats....

    Do they let you outside much?
    Did you even read what he said?

    Where does he mention cheating? I assume he is stating that supporters from the teams playing in England do not want you either.
  • AaronTurner 21 Nov 2012 12:57:23 7,591 posts
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    Yeah I did read what he said, did you?
  • Pompeybear 21 Nov 2012 13:01:52 454 posts
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    From James Traynor, daily record. A decent article not blinded by hatred.

    RANGERS have had many massive triumphs in their time, especially the 3-2 win over Moscow Dynamo in the 1972 European Cup Winners’ Cup final.

    But yesterday’s result will surely go down as the most significant in their history. It wasn’t even played out on a pitch.

    This victory came inside a stuffy office somewhere along Edinburgh’s George Street.

    But even though no one kicked a ball, Rangers’ 2-1 win in the First Tier Tax Tribunal represents one of their greatest successes.

    And it should bring an end to one of the longest and, given the behaviour of so many mean spirited and malicious individuals, certainly one of the most shameful tax cases in Scottish history.

    Murray Group Holdings and Others were contesting a potential tax liability of £87million (made up mostly of penalties) and if there is to be a bill it will come to no more than £2m but probably even less.

    This will be in combined penalties against individuals who may be guilty of minor breaches of technicalities.

    But the point is Rangers were brought to their knees by a debt which was never real.

    And they became victims of a case which should not have been allowed to run in the first place. Long and complex, it has cost something like £5m in legal fees. But at the end of it all there remains one unanswered question: Why?

    What was the point and what were the real motives behind the zeal with which some in HMRC, and the media, tackled this case? This is not to say the Revenue shouldn’t try to reclaim money when they believe it’s due. It must be stressed they should but there are aspects of this case which deserve to be scrutinised closely and perhaps they will, if some of them people denigrated and wronged decide to take legal action.

    This case has been about money but there has been a greater cost.

    There has been a heavy human cost, too. Innocents, Rangers fans, for instance, have been damaged and so have former directors, especially Martin Bain.

    And what was his crime? He inherited the EBT controversy but managed to hold his club together at a time when it seemed the entire country was pounding at the red facade of Ibrox. But there was no gratitude. Bain, and others, were wrongly accused of malpractice. They, Rangers, were all guilty. Fact.

    Their persecutors, an alarming number of other clubs and their fans, should be hiding in shame this morning, or breaking cover only to apologise. Fat chance.

    Blind hatred and poison has saturated this case which could actually have paid off for HMRC. They were offered £10m two years ago to settle but refused, probably because they wanted a trophy win to set a precedent which would allow them to pursue hundreds of other companies for untold millions.

    But they failed. Yesterday two of the three judges ruled Rangers’ EBT system was a form of loans and not taxable after all.

    And yet, because the tax man insisted Rangers owed them £50m, a catastrophic chain of events then unfolded.

    No one wanted to touch a club with a potential bill of that size hanging over them and eventually Rangers fell into the wrong hands, the hands of a man who really didn’t pay tax and who then caused one of Europe’s biggest clubs to slide into liquidation.

    But let’s be clear on this, the Revenue’s demand for payment, which it has now been declared invalid, started Rangers’ slide towards the precipice. Companies who sell cups of coffee and mobile phones can escape payments for hundreds of millions but Rangers?

    No chance. They were chased and backed into a corner for piddling amounts by comparison. Amounts they didn’t even owe. Of course David Murray is responsible for selling but he was being pressed by a bank, who wanted rid of the club. They didn’t like the bad publicity their squeezing of Rangers attracted and Donald Muir, their man on the Ibrox board, wasn’t about to let Craig Whyte’s offer pass by.

    The rest is history but it is a bitter and twisted chapter in a story which shines a light on a side of this country which should embarrass us. So many people wanted Rangers shut, or at least cut down and now they know there was nothing illegal in what was done with EBT payments they should take a good look at themselves.

    Sadly, they just wanted to believe Rangers were guilty and it became popular belief that this lot really did owe almost £90m in tax. People spoke matter of factly about Rangers being tax cheats and there was such a groundswell against the club few were willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

    The facts were trampled as the crowds rushed to dance on Rangers’ grave.

    Even people who should have known better were swept along in the rush to accuse and condemn Rangers or anyone who dared say, ‘hold on, shouldn’t we wait until the real financial experts rule.’

    But now we all know the truth, although we haven’t a clue as to the identities of those at the centre of this sorry saga.

    Bizarrely an anonymised form of the tribunal’s ruling was published yesterday revealing that evidence had been delivered by Mr Red, Mr Purple, Mr Turquoise, Mr Yellow, Mrs Scarlet and other colourful people.

    Neither Quentin Tarantino nor the makers of Cluedo could have done a better job of disguising characters yet the identities of those who had received loans in the form of EBT while at Rangers were leaked routinely to
    journalists and bloggers.

    But the Revenue didn’t want the names of any of their people out in there in the public domain. Why? Because we’d then know who had rejected the £10m? Or was it felt they had to be protected for other reasons?

    But there are names on various emails and documents in circulation and maybe one day soon there will be greater transparency as a case which has brought so much strife to the game is finally put to rest.

    We can argue until the end of time about whether the Rangers in question still exist or whether the history with all its glories, defeats, highs and lows remains intact. But one crucial truth cannot and should not be lost.

    Rangers, we know, were stricken, taken down by a fantasy tax bill. They were declared guilty before trial.

    Rangers, as a brand, was tarnished because HMRC said they owed tax on EBT payments which the club had always argued were loans. Yesterday two of the three judges agreed. So HMRC, who had insisted an initial tax and National Insurance bill of £37m, which climbed to £87m, be paid, were left with nothing. They say they’ll appeal but it could be argued they’ve caused more than enough damage.

    Besides, even if they’d won their case yesterday they still wouldn’t have got anything out of the Rangers they had pursued. They were forced into liquidation, remember.

    And the real bottom line in all of this? Rangers’ closure was all so unnecessary and the turmoil and upheaval caused could have been avoided. Despite accusations Rangers did nothing wrong. Pity the same can’t be said of all those self-proclaimed experts, bloggers and journalists.
    Rangers will be clobbered they had said. The verdict will be damning. Rangers will be shown up as cheats, they squealed.

    It’s clear now who the guilty parties are and Rangers are not among them.

    Edited by Pompeybear at 13:05:18 21-11-2012
  • President_Weasel 21 Nov 2012 13:06:53 8,923 posts
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    Oh will you please stop whining about being persecuted?


    If Rangers had been properly run they wouldn't have needed to be sold; all this whining about "nobody good wanted to buy us because of the tax case so we got a diddy" misses the point; had they been run at a profit, there would have been no need to sell them for a pound.
  • Pompeybear 21 Nov 2012 13:09:08 454 posts
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    @President_Weasel 18 mil in debt was hardly badly run, but hey why deal in facts !

    Edit: Considering it was £50 mil in debt 3 to 4 years previous. I would say it had everything to do with who the club was sold to for £1.

    Edited by Pompeybear at 13:11:47 21-11-2012
  • AaronTurner 21 Nov 2012 13:11:06 7,591 posts
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    You need some history lessons. We had reduced our debt to £18m, we were running at a profit. The bank wanted rid of us because of the tax case and pressure was applied to Murray to sell. It was all intimately involved with the tax case. I even have my doubts about what would have happened under Whyte, he clearly felt it better to try and rid the club of the tax case by running us into the ground and starting up again. It was hopelessly poor management from Whyte but at the end of the day the driver behind the situation we are now in was all due to this case.
  • Armoured_Bear 21 Nov 2012 13:28:43 10,237 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    I feel sorry for you. If you think the SPL and SFA tried to keep us in the top flight for our own benefit then you're misguided, we would have been heavily sanctioned for years to come.

    I think after the kicking we've received it would have been decent for people to be slightly apologetic but I'm in no way surprised that they aren't. This was never really about the fact, it was always about hatred.
    No hatred, just the opinion that Rangers should be treated the same as any other club in that situation.
    The "kicking" is only in Ranger's fans paranoid imagination.

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  • Vortex808 21 Nov 2012 13:30:05 6,933 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    Yeah I did read what he said, did you?
    :redface: Clearly not well enough.
  • Armoured_Bear 21 Nov 2012 13:31:19 10,237 posts
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    Traynor is a joke of a journalist btw, it's laughable to use his ramblings.

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  • Mekanik 21 Nov 2012 13:31:34 3,423 posts
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    Ahh, at least we got through half a page before rangers reared its head in here again.

    Doesnt the SFA have a rule that all wages paid to players should be disclosed a part of the thing that clubs need to follow to be allowed membership? If not heavy penalties and all that.
  • Armoured_Bear 21 Nov 2012 13:32:21 10,237 posts
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    Mekanik wrote:
    Ahh, at least we got through half a page before rangers reared its head in here again.

    Doesnt the SFA have a rule that all wages paid to players should be disclosed a part of the thing that clubs need to follow to be allowed membership? If not heavy penalties and all that.
    Yes.

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  • Pompeybear 21 Nov 2012 13:42:22 454 posts
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    Traynor has been the only journalist to maintain a balanced view in all this and not have the 'its rangers ,they cheated!' attitude. How can a sports journalist write about a very complicated tax case and pass judgement before the announcement? Traynor didnt, fair play to him. The case had been going on for 2 years yet the Scottish press had been led by bloggers, their own personal wishes and general hatred of Rangers to keep saying we were at one stage £140 mil in debt!

    Traynors 'ramblings' as you put it have pretty much spot on from the start. I know whos article I prefer to believe, facts or fiction?

    Rangers had no case to answer . FACT
  • Pompeybear 21 Nov 2012 13:45:34 454 posts
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    @Mekanik Yes, Rangers declared them as can been seen in all audited accounts given to the SPL.
  • AaronTurner 21 Nov 2012 13:47:07 7,591 posts
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    Armoured_Bear wrote:
    Mekanik wrote:
    Ahh, at least we got through half a page before rangers reared its head in here again.

    Doesnt the SFA have a rule that all wages paid to players should be disclosed a part of the thing that clubs need to follow to be allowed membership? If not heavy penalties and all that.
    Yes.
    Are you guys following the story? The case has just ruled these as loans. There is nothing in the rules regarding loans and all the loans were disclosed to the SFA, nothing was hidden. Seriously, know when to stop...
  • AaronTurner 21 Nov 2012 13:48:49 7,591 posts
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    Armoured_Bear wrote:
    AaronTurner wrote:
    I feel sorry for you. If you think the SPL and SFA tried to keep us in the top flight for our own benefit then you're misguided, we would have been heavily sanctioned for years to come.

    I think after the kicking we've received it would have been decent for people to be slightly apologetic but I'm in no way surprised that they aren't. This was never really about the fact, it was always about hatred.
    No hatred, just the opinion that Rangers should be treated the same as any other club in that situation.
    The "kicking" is only in Ranger's fans paranoid imagination.
    All clubs should be treated as liars and cheats before the conclusion of a trial? Are we just going to make guesses on a whim now? Fuck the legal system eh?
  • craigy Staff 21 Nov 2012 13:55:43 7,492 posts
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    To accuse Rangers fans of having a persecution complex is fair enough.

    The problem is, though, the club has been accused over the course of several years of liabilities by HMRC which turned out to be invalid. So the complex isn't really a complex. At this point the persecution is real.

    But I do think everyone needs to chill out a bit.
  • ResidentKnievel 21 Nov 2012 14:15:52 6,103 posts
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    So when will the players pay back the loans?

    It's quite clear that they've dodged paying tax on players wages, the ruling means that what they've done has been deemed perfectly legal.

    I still think Rangers are cunts and rather disheartened they've got away with not paying huge amounts of tax to gain a competitive advantage.

    Edited by ResidentKnievel at 14:19:40 21-11-2012

    [code]Armoured_Bear wrote:
    Unlike yourself, I don't have a weird obsession with any platform.[/code]

  • Pompeybear 21 Nov 2012 14:28:02 454 posts
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    @ResidentKnievel Glad to see you are not bitter. Er .. what about juninho? is he paying his back?

    I really don't understand this attitude...HMRC have said there was no cheating, no breaking of laws rules etc. Good to see your true hatred coming out.

    Do you hate rangers more than you love your own team? That is what is killing scottish football. This hatred of everything Rangers.

    PS: Rangers have got away with nothing
    Edited by Pompeybear at 14:31:59 21-11-2012

    Edited by Pompeybear at 14:33:21 21-11-2012
  • AaronTurner 21 Nov 2012 14:37:40 7,591 posts
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    This is the thing with all the bitterness shown by people, now it's the moral implications or something else that is wrong. Throw enough shit and some of it sticks?

    What do Celtic fans think of all their employees that use tax avoidance schemes?
  • ResidentKnievel 21 Nov 2012 15:01:22 6,103 posts
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    Hey, I know haven't broken any laws.

    I'm just quite disheartened that that's the case, I really dislike large companies getting away with tax evading.

    Every club will be considering doing it now :\

    Why pay tax when you can just 'loan' money to your players!

    Edited by ResidentKnievel at 15:02:54 21-11-2012

    [code]Armoured_Bear wrote:
    Unlike yourself, I don't have a weird obsession with any platform.[/code]

  • AaronTurner 21 Nov 2012 15:03:01 7,591 posts
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    And individuals too presumably?
  • AaronTurner 21 Nov 2012 15:06:18 7,591 posts
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    And no every company won't be doing it because there have since been laws closing the loop holes.
  • ResidentKnievel 21 Nov 2012 15:07:10 6,103 posts
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    Well that's good

    [code]Armoured_Bear wrote:
    Unlike yourself, I don't have a weird obsession with any platform.[/code]

  • Vortex808 21 Nov 2012 15:09:43 6,933 posts
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    So now everyone's against rangers because celtic players aren't having to pay theirs back? Which may have to happen yet anyway. This is essentially what it always boils down to with the OF- It's not fair, it's not happening to them, we're so hard done by etc.

    Also, sadly in pretty much every town and village in scotland there are many more folk sporting one of the OF clubs colours than the local club and you honestly think everyone's against you?
  • Gaol 21 Nov 2012 15:15:43 2,263 posts
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    Incredible news. Like Traynor says, not one supporter of any other team will feel a bit bad, despite the huge collateral damage. Too busy hating.
  • AaronTurner 21 Nov 2012 15:15:47 7,591 posts
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    I think if you can't see the shit that rangers fans have had to put up with for the last several years then you're blind. Don't start greeting just because we have something to celebrate, be a man and take some humble pie.
  • craigy Staff 21 Nov 2012 15:32:25 7,492 posts
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    I wish greetin' and numpty were used down south -- two amazing words that us English miss out on.
  • craigy Staff 21 Nov 2012 15:33:52 7,492 posts
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    "Tube", too.
  • Armoured_Bear 21 Nov 2012 15:43:06 10,237 posts
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    Celtic did it with one player whereas with Rangers it was the owner down to the clean, dozens of people and untold millions.

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