From now on I'll just download the games to save me the hassle that IS DRM Page 2

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  • Deleted user 12 November 2012 09:17:59
    Moot_Point wrote:
    oi wrote:
    That had to be sarcasm though, surely.
    Well the crux of the OP's argument was about him buying a disc ;) based game that required an internet connection. Not downloading a copy from the pirate bay. So, saying that he wasn't allowed to play it as and when he wants is a bit cuntish, no?
    It was a reasonably crazy thing to say hence why I thought he was just being a sarky git.
  • spamdangled 12 Nov 2012 09:19:39 27,197 posts
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    Anyway, Bulletstorm on PC costs about a fiver now (if that), so it's not exactly like he just dropped 40 quid on the thing.

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  • bad09 12 Nov 2012 09:19:58 5,504 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    And it isn't retarded to buy a PC game without checking whether or not you will be able to run it?
    Like I said you can blame consumer ignorance if you want doesn't really solve anything just highlights how people just do not expect such shit treatment when they buy entertainment products.

    Not every consumer knows how shit the industry is now, not every consumer has learnt to deal with the crud side of this industry and find out the DRM before details on the game. People don't expect to be held to ransom by an unrelated thing, of course these people find out the hard way like this guy here but I honestly don't think it's their fault. You don't scan every bit of detail when buying a console game and you didn't on PC games years ago.

    We shouldn't have to research the stupid ineffective anti-consumer hoops this industry wants for paying consumers while pirates just download a copy with no hassle. I don't see why a consumer needs to research every aspect of a purchase just to ensure it will start.
  • kalel 12 Nov 2012 09:20:56 83,875 posts
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    I do sympathise with the OP. It's annoying to have that happen (and not such a ridiculously stupid thing to do in fairness, it's probably fairly easily done). It doesn't justify piracy though.
  • spamdangled 12 Nov 2012 09:21:57 27,197 posts
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    bad09 wrote:
    You don't scan every bit of detail when buying a console game and you didn't on PC games years ago.
    It's been common sense to check the system requirements on a PC game for well over two decades now.

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  • spamdangled 12 Nov 2012 09:22:32 27,197 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    I do sympathise with the OP. It's annoying to have that happen (and not such a ridiculously stupid thing to do in fairness, it's probably fairly easily done). It doesn't justify piracy though.
    Quite.

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  • bad09 12 Nov 2012 09:25:36 5,504 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    bad09 wrote:
    You don't scan every bit of detail when buying a console game and you didn't on PC games years ago.
    It's been common sense to check the system requirements on a PC game for well over two decades now.
    Well you can just go round looking down on people for making the mistake of thinking something they buy will work out of the box, for me things like this just highlight the problem and how it breeds and encourages piracy rather than stop it.
  • bad09 12 Nov 2012 09:27:00 5,504 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    I do sympathise with the OP. It's annoying to have that happen (and not such a ridiculously stupid thing to do in fairness, it's probably fairly easily done). It doesn't justify piracy though.
    It's all good saying it doesn't justify piracy but when you are stood there with a disc and a key yet you still can't play you do feel stupid for buying.

    It may not justify it but it sure does encourage it, which is the problem.
  • Moot_Point 12 Nov 2012 09:28:04 3,508 posts
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    bigbandluva wrote:
    The thing that makes me even more mad is the fact that I would've avoided all of these problems if I were to simply downloading it, free of charge. I know I'm not the first one to make this remark, but something is seriously fucked up when the buying customer gets a product that's worse than the one you find for free on TPB, isn't it? What the fuck is wrong with PC gaming?
    This statement doesn't say in any way he would download future games off TPB. It merely says it would be easier to do so. Time to dismount the horse!

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  • kalel 12 Nov 2012 09:28:38 83,875 posts
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    The thing is, pretty much everyone who pirates games has an internet connection, so it's not outrageous logic to make that the requirement for verification.
  • spamdangled 12 Nov 2012 09:28:38 27,197 posts
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    bad09 wrote:
    Well you can just go round looking down on people for making the mistake of thinking something they buy will work out of the box
    I will. PC games are not console games. You ALWAYS need to check that your computer is able to run it. If the game had nothing on the box stating a connection was required to activate the game, then I would have a lot more sympathy with him.

    As it is though, this is someone trying to justify piracy after wasting a fiver (big woop) on a game because he didn't think to check the system requirements. He only has himself to blame, frankly.

    For me, this isn't that different from a parent that buys 8-year-old Timothy the latest CoD and then complains to the Daily Mail about how violent it is despite the big fat 18 slapped on the box.

    Edited by darkmorgado at 09:30:42 12-11-2012

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  • bad09 12 Nov 2012 09:33:22 5,504 posts
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    Internet should not be a system requirement though DM, it's not needed to run the game that's a requirement of their useless DRMs. That's the entire point. :)
  • bad09 12 Nov 2012 09:37:55 5,504 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    The thing is, pretty much everyone who pirates games has an internet connection, so it's not outrageous logic to make that the requirement for verification.
    Never get this.

    The internet is not there as a chain for consumer products. How would you feel if your CDs or DVDs needed "verification"?

    Verification happened when the product was bought, a luxury internet service shouldn't become a utility for consumers as the games industry loses it's mind with the power of control it's given itself.

    Edited by bad09 at 09:41:00 12-11-2012
  • MetalDog 12 Nov 2012 09:38:42 23,706 posts
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    It's not crystal clear from the boxes what games need Steam/GFWL/FUCKING UBISOFT accounts and it bloody well should be.

    As a long time developer, speaking purely for myself, I am more annoyed by DRM than I am by piracy.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • RyanDS 12 Nov 2012 09:42:03 8,700 posts
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    I pretty much stopped PC gaming years ago when it got to the point I would buy the game, then go and downloaded the pirate version to get a better experience. Or at the least download a nocd patch. The DRM is really ridiculous.

    Almost as bad as the DVD shit that makes you watch 45 seconds of "DONT STEAL THIS!!!!!!" on the version you paid good money for. This is why I have all the super deluxe Star Trek / Babylon 5 etc box sets on my shelves, but I generally watch the actual episodes from torrents I downloaded as I can just start watching and not have to sit through copyright shit. To be fair though DVDs have cut back a lot on that, nowadays it's just a 5 second copyright notice as opposed to screaming about theft.
  • spamdangled 12 Nov 2012 09:44:04 27,197 posts
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    MetalDog wrote:
    It's not crystal clear from the boxes what games need Steam/GFWL/FUCKING UBISOFT accounts and it bloody well should be.

    As a long time developer, speaking purely for myself, I am more annoyed by DRM than I am by piracy.
    GFWL games come with a huge banner across the front, and "internet connection required" clearly stated on the back. Short of playing an audio recording when someone picks up the box I'm not sure how much more obvious they could make it.

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  • spamdangled 12 Nov 2012 09:45:46 27,197 posts
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    bad09 wrote:
    Verification happened when the product was bought
    And if you didn't buy it.....?

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  • MetalDog 12 Nov 2012 09:46:46 23,706 posts
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    That's the fundamental nub of the matter. Piracy protection should inconvenience pirates more than it inconveniences the paying customer. Ideally, protection wouldn't be visible to the paying customer at all.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • spamdangled 12 Nov 2012 09:47:38 27,197 posts
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    Well yes. I've yet to hear anyone suggest a solution to that problem though.

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  • MetalDog 12 Nov 2012 09:50:16 23,706 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    GFWL games come with a huge banner across the front, and "internet connection required" clearly stated on the back. Short of playing an audio recording when someone picks up the box I'm not sure how much more obvious they could make it.
    Fair enough - and the rest of them captain pedantic?
    When you buy boxed copies online the DRM is usually absent from the product description. You often find it mentioned in the rating comments though =)

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • kalel 12 Nov 2012 09:52:47 83,875 posts
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    bad09 wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    The thing is, pretty much everyone who pirates games has an internet connection, so it's not outrageous logic to make that the requirement for verification.
    Never get this.

    The internet is not there as a chain for consumer products. How would you feel if your CDs or DVDs needed "verification"?

    Verification happened when the product was bought, a luxury internet service shouldn't become a utility for consumers as the games industry loses it's mind with the power of control it's given itself.
    You have a valid point that is somewhat undermined by the frothiness of that final statement.

    Again, the industry has done this out of necessity. It knows it is annoying customers and even losing them. It would not do that unless if felt it was gaining more than it was losing. Painting this as "greed" is churlish. This is business and any business will seek to stop people getting what they are selling for free. It is fair enough.
  • spamdangled 12 Nov 2012 09:53:53 27,197 posts
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    MetalDog wrote:
    darkmorgado wrote:
    GFWL games come with a huge banner across the front, and "internet connection required" clearly stated on the back. Short of playing an audio recording when someone picks up the box I'm not sure how much more obvious they could make it.
    Fair enough - and the rest of them captain pedantic?
    When you buy boxed copies online the DRM is usually absent from the product description. You often find it mentioned in the rating comments though =)
    Not really pedantic, as it's a GFWL game the OP is whinging about because his internet was on the blink.

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  • MetalDog 12 Nov 2012 09:54:05 23,706 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    Well yes. I've yet to hear anyone suggest a solution to that problem though.
    Where there's a will there's a way. Look at all the backtracking Ubisoft has done because of customer pressure. Piss people off enough and they simply won't buy.

    The model is very much moving towards 'added value' in the form of microtransactions which is its own can of worms. You need to support what you want with your wallet - nothing else will change things.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • PenguinJim 12 Nov 2012 09:57:22 5,455 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    We wouldn't be in this situation with DRM if people hadn't been pirating so much in the first place.
    Piracy is not the reason for publishers including DRM. Ubisoft have actually proved this.

    Wait a second... aren't you one of those people who rips off game developers through taking advantage of obvious pricing errors?
  • spamdangled 12 Nov 2012 10:01:14 27,197 posts
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    How is that ripping off the devs? Retailers purchase stock in advance. Once it's in a shop, the publisher has already been paid.

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  • Chopsen 12 Nov 2012 10:02:22 15,176 posts
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    What is the problem with the old fashioned, offline, "CD-keys"? Is it just easy to hack out/bypass?

    Re the better solution: why not encrypt a key part of the disk/software, and that has to be decrypted at install time by using a key, which is basically the CD-key? Different copies of the disk could be provided which are encrypted with different keys, so cutting down on key sharing.

    More of a faff for the producer, or course...
  • PenguinJim 12 Nov 2012 10:03:30 5,455 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    How is that ripping off the devs? Retailers purchase stock in advance. Once it's in a shop, the publisher has already been paid.
    If memory serves, it wasn't in a shop.
  • kalel 12 Nov 2012 10:06:32 83,875 posts
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    PenguinJim wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    We wouldn't be in this situation with DRM if people hadn't been pirating so much in the first place.
    Piracy is not the reason for publishers including DRM. Ubisoft have actually proved this.

    Wait a second... aren't you one of those people who rips off game developers through taking advantage of obvious pricing errors?
    Um, what? Don't think so.
  • PenguinJim 12 Nov 2012 10:07:31 5,455 posts
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    Ah, my mistake. I thought you'd "stolen" Uncharted: Golden Abyss for 79p. Please accept my apologies and carry on!
  • bad09 12 Nov 2012 10:08:23 5,504 posts
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    kalel wrote:

    You have a valid point that is somewhat undermined by the frothiness of that final statement.

    Again, the industry has done this out of necessity. It knows it is annoying customers and even losing them. It would not do that unless if felt it was gaining more than it was losing. Painting this as "greed" is churlish. This is business and any business will seek to stop people getting what they are selling for free. It is fair enough.
    Yet DRM time and time again provides little or no protection. Games are up at launch with only a very small handful being delayed yet companies continue with an ineffective method of stopping piracy that also puts many people off buying and actively encourages them to pirate your product??

    Maybe that was the thinking long ago but honestly I can't believe DRM is still there for piracy as that would tell you how utterly clueless this industry really is in "combating" piracy.
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