The EU thread Page 3

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  • Deleted user 11 January 2013 10:18:17
    andytheadequate wrote:
    With a proportional representation democratic model, coalitions would be the norm. And as others have said, we only vote for people to make a decision for us, in a true democracy everyone would be able to vote on every issue (which would be impossible, and probably an utter nightmare)
    Not neccesarily. You could get political parties to come up with proposed laws and people could vote on the internet.

    This whole a true democracy would be hell, makes it clear we don't live in a democracy.
  • Moot_Point 11 Jan 2013 10:22:25 4,064 posts
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    Chopsen wrote:
    They had more seats in parliament than any other single party as well, as well as the majority of the votes nationally.
    But they needed a minimum of 350 seats to form a Government. So without the coalition they didn't have enough seats to win democratically.

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    mowgli wrote: I thought the 1 married the .2 and founded Islam?

  • andytheadequate 11 Jan 2013 10:24:48 8,168 posts
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    They only needed that many seats to form a majority. Coalitions generally make governments more reasonable as they can't just put through anything they want to, they need to appeal to a wider group of people.

    And not everyone has access to the internet, or even a computer/tablet, so it wouldn't be democratic even if we could vote on the internet.

    Edited by andytheadequate at 10:26:03 11-01-2013
  • LeoliansBro 11 Jan 2013 10:30:42 44,210 posts
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    Moot_Point wrote:
    Chopsen wrote:
    They had more seats in parliament than any other single party as well, as well as the majority of the votes nationally.
    But they needed a minimum of 350 seats to form a Government. So without the coalition they didn't have enough seats to win democratically.
    FOR FUCK SAKE BILLY. If DC goes to the queen and says 'I have 350 MPs who support me as PM, and they are in the Tory party' all well and good. But he doesn't need the last clause because 'the Tory Party' is just a convenient, unofficial construct.

    Enough MPs supported DC as PM. Who cares which party they are in?

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Mr-Brett 11 Jan 2013 10:31:13 12,787 posts
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    Moot_Point wrote:
    Mr-Brett wrote:
    Moot_Point wrote:
    @TheSaint In a democracy, it is normally the party with the most amount of votes that runs the Government. A coalition allows parties without a majority vote to seize control.


    In a sense, if the BNP formed a coalition, they too could rise to power and form a Government.
    The Tories got the majority of votes.
    Yes, but only with the culmination of the Liberal Democrats votes. They didn't win outright.
    You're moving the goal posts, you said the most amount of votes first and that's what the Tories got. They did win, if by 'outright' you mean an 'overall majority' then you're correct, but they could have formed a government without that, albeit a nurfed one, so it's still wrong :)

    Portable view - Never forget.

  • Chopsen 11 Jan 2013 10:32:49 15,964 posts
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    They only needed that many seats to form an *overall* majority. They could have formed a government as they stood, there was nothing constitutionally stopping them. The reason to form a coalition is purely practical: as a minority government it would be easier for the other parties to vote against you as a block, so you'd effectively have to negotiate an ad-hoc coalition for every act of parliament you took a vote on.
  • Dougs 11 Jan 2013 10:34:01 67,685 posts
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    Bingo!
  • bitch_tits_zero_nine 11 Jan 2013 10:35:16 6,654 posts
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    Yeah, I don't have enough faith in the populations ability to judge each issue objectively to make a true democracy work.

    Even given the idea that it works on the principle that if everybody votes in their own interest, the wider group will be served.

    I honestly think the majority of people don't know what would be best for themselves; the banking crisis kind of demonstrates that politics isn't a cause and effect game.

    Intellectual elites are probably the ones that realise the world we live in is too complex imo.

    /is ignorant.
  • Chopsen 11 Jan 2013 10:47:36 15,964 posts
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    I think the problem with letting the public decide things is that the public don't have the time, resources or information to make decisions which take in to full account the implications of them, and how to manage those implications.

    So put the question "Do you want more money spent on cancer treatment?" and obviously everybody says yes. So then it's "So what are you going to cut funding for? Or are you going to increase taxation? Or both? What are you using to make a decision to fund one thing more than another? What makes sure that's fair?" And then it's, "what are you going to do with all the people who needed the thing you just cut? And who are you going to tax? How is that fair? What about the impact of those tax changes?"

    It is really difficult in of itself to get that kind of thinking right (I know this is a EU thread and not a health thread, but same applies in all areas.)
    Having to get that right and *then* explain to everybody via a media that will simplify and distort everything you say? Madness.

    One thing I've really changed my mind about over the years is the house of lords. I think they do a really important job, and making them elected may be ideologically good for a democracy, but would remove the only real proper scrutiny our government has.
  • Dougs 11 Jan 2013 11:20:59 67,685 posts
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    Agreed, have said the same many times before. Some are old duffers who offer little other than experience in how the place works, but others are placed there because they have the technical knowhow to scrutinise policy making.
  • grey_matters 11 Jan 2013 12:02:21 3,737 posts
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    Switzerland has a fuck-ton of referenda per year don't they?
  • mcmonkeyplc 29 Jan 2013 10:17:00 39,456 posts
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    Pan EU Data Protection reform

    Apparently reduces costs for business, gives us the right to move data between service providers and have the right to be "forgotten".

    Seems pretty decent to me....I wonder if we'll need a referendum on this? :p

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • TheSaint 29 Jan 2013 10:20:54 14,374 posts
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    Press release in not containing any of the negatives shock!
  • mcmonkeyplc 29 Jan 2013 12:18:05 39,456 posts
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    I'm sure we'll find that out once it gets to the Parliament.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • mal 29 Jan 2013 13:15:36 22,526 posts
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    I've a lot of time for Vivianne Reding's opinions personally, but as always with these things I suspect the devil is in the detail. This press release just contains the aims of the legislation (if I can call it that), not any of the nitty gritty.

    Even so, I'm sure there will be a lot of debate about the 'right to be forgotten'. Plenty of economically minded people will be concerned about the costs of doing that, and personally I'm a little concerned about the clause 'if there are no legitimate grounds for retaining it'. I'm sure that can be construed to apply to all sorts of cases. The ICO will probably need to be given even more manpower and responsibilities, which I can't see the Tories being too keen on in the UK.

    Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!

  • mcmonkeyplc 29 Jan 2013 13:25:38 39,456 posts
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    Yeah that legitimate reason clause will cause a lot of fuss and will need to be very well defined.

    I can see financial details having to be kept for accounting but then these will need to strictly securely stored and then disposed of after X years of inactivity.

    Certainly will be interesting and it's necessary for the digital single market to get going. They need to sort out licensing as well which they're doing VERY slowly.

    Edited by mcmonkeyplc at 13:32:40 29-01-2013

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • Moot_Point 1 Feb 2013 16:47:58 4,064 posts
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    Lady Baroness Noaks speech pertaining to the EU. I was glad to hear that there are reports that indicate there is no evidence that a no vote would hurt the economy. So, are the economists just scaremongering those who know no better that not joining the EU would be detrimentally disastrous for England's economic future.

    Edited by Moot_Point at 04:50:12 02-02-2013

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    mowgli wrote: I thought the 1 married the .2 and founded Islam?

  • DaM 1 Feb 2013 18:08:48 13,144 posts
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    Go on then Moot, how would the economy gain if we left the EU?
  • Soul_quake 1 Feb 2013 18:35:02 252 posts
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    I wonder what Otto would have to say about all this. Used to love his posts about the EU.
  • Moot_Point 2 Feb 2013 04:55:47 4,064 posts
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    @DaM That is for those who want to join the EU to explain, as there are plenty here who have already decided that not joining the EU would be disastrous to our economy. I have asked for economic proof before, but no-one as yet has provided a reasonable answer, with links to back up their points.

    Edited by Moot_Point at 04:56:46 02-02-2013

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    mowgli wrote: I thought the 1 married the .2 and founded Islam?

  • Psychotext 2 Feb 2013 05:58:59 54,180 posts
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    Moot_Point wrote:
    @DaM That is for those who want to join the EU to explain, as there are plenty here who have already decided that not joining the EU would be disastrous to our economy.
    We're already in the EU. Are you sure it's a good idea arguing about things you don't seem to understand?

    You're going to say that you meant joining the single currency, or "joining the EURO"... but the simple fact that you called it the EU tells me that you're mostly ignorant of the actual situation.
  • RedSparrows 2 Feb 2013 10:04:08 22,648 posts
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    Moot, it's not up to anyone but yourself. Stop being a coward.
  • Moot_Point 2 Feb 2013 11:24:51 4,064 posts
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    @RedSparrows I think the Lords know more than I about the effects of withdrawal from the EU, so why do I need to prove myself otherwise?

    When it comes to anything to do with the EU, I will be watching the debates in the Lords instead of listening to the backbiting in the commons. And yes, I will be watching this topic of debate like a hawk.

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    mowgli wrote: I thought the 1 married the .2 and founded Islam?

  • RedSparrows 2 Feb 2013 11:32:30 22,648 posts
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    Why is one speech from a Lord the 'Lords' as a whole?

    Why aren't you looking for flaws in a pro-EU argument to strengthen your own case, rather than assuming there isn't one because nobody has fed it to you?

    We all base our own critical position in favour of those we deem cleverer than ourselves (or, perhaps, more sympathetic?), and more knowledgable. But hopefully we don't throw it away entirely in doing so. 'Joining the EU' is so wrong as to be laughable.

    Edited by RedSparrows at 11:33:46 02-02-2013
  • Moot_Point 2 Feb 2013 11:53:08 4,064 posts
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    @RedSparrows I thought the debate I linked to was a reasoned debate. Most (if not the majority) of the Lords hold the highest places in the industries that would be affected by our withdrawal from the EU, so they would be more knowledgeable in that sense.

    Are you saying that listening to them would be folly, when we all know that commons politics are influenced by business and central banks? And that we never get the full picture from the government as to why it is so important to join.

    Comparing the two sides of the house, the Lords seem to speak with more reason and sense, in a time when reason and sense are replaced with scaremongering and poor arguments from those who seek to profit from England's further integrating into a federal state.


    Ed: typo

    Edited by Moot_Point at 11:54:16 02-02-2013

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    mowgli wrote: I thought the 1 married the .2 and founded Islam?

  • RedSparrows 2 Feb 2013 12:11:24 22,648 posts
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    Moot_Point wrote:
    @RedSparrows I thought the debate I linked to was a reasoned debate. Most (if not the majority) of the Lords hold the highest places in the industries that would be affected by our withdrawal from the EU, so they would be more knowledgeable in that sense.

    Are you saying that listening to them would be folly, when we all know that commons politics are influenced by business and central banks? And that we never get the full picture from the government as to why it is so important to join.

    Comparing the two sides of the house, the Lords seem to speak with more reason and sense, in a time when reason and sense are replaced with scaremongering and poor arguments from those who seek to profit from England's further integrating into a federal state.


    Ed: typo
    What? I wasn't disputing that the Lords might know something we don't. I was arguing that you yourself have a responsibility to find the 'proof' of the good of the EU, rather than sit there sneering at everyone because you can't be arsed to do it yourself.

    P.S. whilst the Lords as an institution has been remarkably positive in my eyes in some ways, do tell how the power of corruption doesn't affect those in the Lords? You say it yourself: 'highest places in the industries' and then 'commons politics are influence by business'. Whut? By your logic, surely some in the Lords must be as corrupted as you see the HoC. Or is it because in that debate (or just the speech of Noakes?) you heard what you like? Have you listened to a Tory back-bencher, recently?

    As for scaremongering and poor arguments, I don't think you can accuse one side without pointing out the enormously jaundiced reporting of the evils of the EU. That's simply not honest.

    Edit: to make it clear, I am not necessarily anti/pro-EU here. It's more the terms of debate that I am interested in. At heart I think a re-negotiation, of all states, might be a positive thing, but I don't necessarily buy the idea that more integration OR removal from is the way forward.



    Edited by RedSparrows at 12:22:39 02-02-2013

    Edited by RedSparrows at 12:28:30 02-02-2013
  • RedSparrows 2 Feb 2013 12:27:51 22,648 posts
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    Moot_Point wrote:
    Lady Baroness Noaks speech pertaining to the EU. I was glad to hear that there are reports that indicate there is no evidence that a no vote would hurt the economy. So, are the economists just scaremongering those who know no better that not joining the EU would be detrimentally disastrous for England's economic future.
    Er, she actually says there has been no definitive study, and one report suggests the economic 'plus or minus' could be very small. I.e. it's very hard to tell. Which is fair enough! But don't pretend that's 'no evidence that a no vote would hurt the economy' - especially if no definitive report exists.
  • mal 2 Feb 2013 12:31:55 22,526 posts
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    Those in power in the commons are corrupted by the press and big business because the former promises not to write stuff that'll lose them votes, while the latter promises them jobs, which'll win them votes, and tax contributions, which'll make balancing the budget easier, which'll win them votes.

    No votes in the house, so no bias on that front. Just a pity so many of them are appointed peers now, so biased from the start.

    Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!

  • LeoliansBro 2 Feb 2013 12:37:05 44,210 posts
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    To be fair to billy, it isn't a totally straightforward question. We are not in the single currency and so the need to be in the EU and preserve it at all costs does not have the urgency that it does for those in the core group of 17.

    However I think billy's idea that leaving the EU would be a good thing is bizarre. Doubly so because he puts the onus of proof on those who want to remain, citing a Lords speech as proof of his position (anyone remember the Lords speech about $100 trillion dollars worth of gold being transacted through Greece by banks, something niteninja would be proud of).

    Billy - leaving the EU would disrupt trade agreements. The EU has tariffs which don't apply to members. So if we choose not to be a member, our foreign goods get more expensive and the exports we sell become less popular abroad.

    Leaving the EU would position ourselves as diplomatically and politically isolated. We're effectively saying 'we don't care about you' to the rest of Europe. The EU is designed to act as a unit in the case of international crisis. You're effectively saying we're better off in NATO, so you're advocating closer ties with the US. Is that what you want? So I take it you're all for another Afghanistan, another Iraq.

    Leaving the EU would remove our voice from EU policy forming. You think the EU acts against our interests now? (You're wrong, but anyway). Think what would happen if they formed policy without having to consider what we would like, of what we will accept.

    Leaving the EU is little minded, inward thinking and wilfully believes in Briatin as a great, independent nation, a colossus on the world stage. Who will listen to us globally when we negotiate trade agreements in isolation? Certainly we will be disadvantaged with trade with the Far East.

    And if you want to be a little jingoist prat, let's have a look at the crises facing the UK as an individual at the moment. Our economy is unbalanced and overwhelmingly dependent on financial services, our exports are a weakly resurgent car manufacturing industry, nostalgia goods and tourism. We are facing an Argentinian sabre rattle from across the Atlantic, the US has far too many or its own problems to worry about the distant, fair weather 'special relationship', and China and India will favour selling collectively to the EU over selling to us. We are nowhere near as strong on our own as we like to pretend.

    On the inside we can shape the EU towards a shared future. On the outside we watch the world head off into the future while we are left behind, humming Rule Brittania in an empty pub with a faded picture of the queen on the wall.

    Do you see?

    Now, why should we leave?

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • RedSparrows 2 Feb 2013 12:37:10 22,648 posts
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    Everyone's 'biased', it's not a useful term. It's more a matter of controlling that bias and innate emotional/intellectual weight that sits behind the bias, and trying to achieve the best for the whole.
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