Class

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  • MetalDog 24 Sep 2012 11:15:17 23,708 posts
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    A few years ago, I made an offhand comment in a thread that there were a lot of middle class posters about. I didn't mean anything derogatory by the remark, but I do remember being roundly criticised and informed that there was 'no such thing as class' anymore.

    I'm curious as to whether that's the general view a few years on? At the time it seemed to me that while the classes were getting fuzzier, they still existed and today it seems to me that while the lines have moved a bit, the class system is on the rise again.

    So - what's the general view? Are we re-drawing class lines in bolder ink lately, or do you think I'm deluded?

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • MrTomFTW Moderator 24 Sep 2012 11:19:03 37,382 posts
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    I'm pyar class la

    /scouse

    Follow me on Twitter: @MrTom
    Voted by the community "Best mod" 2011, 2012 and 2013.

  • mcmonkeyplc 24 Sep 2012 11:21:41 39,387 posts
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    Yes class is an issue now as we've once again widened the gap between rich and poor.

    I'm a Soldier class in Mass Effect and Star Trek online.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • Salaman 24 Sep 2012 11:23:42 18,879 posts
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    Ooow this should provide discussion material for the rest of the week.
    I make it 12 pages by Friday.

    Can't comment on the actual question really. It's a bit of a non issue where I live.
  • Metalfish 24 Sep 2012 11:24:49 8,791 posts
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    From my experience the classes are still pretty defined. It never went away.
  • MetalDog 24 Sep 2012 11:25:42 23,708 posts
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    Well, if it goes 12 pages, I will reconsider the thought in light of the arguments. I'm not convinced it will though. You're lucky, Salaman - it's the sort of thing that should be a non-issue in a healthy system, I reckon.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • nickthegun 24 Sep 2012 11:28:04 58,889 posts
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    People who say 'theres no such thing' are usually moderately well off people embarrassed to be middle class.

    Certainly when I was younger and stupider, I used to try and hide that my family were doing ok. Its not very rock and roll.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    He totally called it

  • Alastair 24 Sep 2012 11:31:20 15,474 posts
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    I am middle class, there's no way I could escape it.
    My wife makes reference to it at times e.g. going to France on a Eurocamp holiday, or joining the National Trust are both 'middle class' things to do, compared to her more working class upbringing.
    Yet, I look at myself and think I am not so middle class as I am state school educated and went to an 'ex-Poly' university.

    Not as nice as I used to be

  • DaM 24 Sep 2012 11:33:54 12,902 posts
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    I am actually eating popcorn from my middle class Graze snackbox!
  • Alastair 24 Sep 2012 11:35:03 15,474 posts
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    @DaM
    Ha ha, if Graze marks me out as middle class as well then so be it!

    Not as nice as I used to be

  • Dougs 24 Sep 2012 11:37:38 66,723 posts
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    Heh, my wife says the same but more to convince me that I'm middle class. She's right of course, but as nick says, it's something I try to deny. For no real reason than I am the son of a plumber and a home help, so seemed about right that I was working class.
  • nickthegun 24 Sep 2012 11:42:01 58,889 posts
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    Looking back, one of the reasons I tried to hide my middle classishness was that during the 80's I lived in a yorkshire village with a *lot* of miners in it.

    When they were striking they would get really shitty about any displays of wealth or whatever (my dad was a farmer with a farm shop or a 'butchers' as it was called in the days of yore) and come in trying to blag food.

    So you always had to make out you were doing worse than you were or the peasants would revolt.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    He totally called it

  • RabidChild 24 Sep 2012 11:43:44 2,289 posts
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    I used to work with a Norwegian who was baffled about class and didn't understand why British people cared so much.

    I'm inclined to agree, though as nickthegun says, i'm moderately 'well-off' (well, kinda) so I would.
  • kalel 24 Sep 2012 11:48:32 86,420 posts
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    It's not that the middle class doesn't exist anymore, but it's a far wider and more complex definition than it used to be.

    I'd be fairly confident in saying 90% (at least) of this forum is middle class.
  • StarchildHypocrethes 24 Sep 2012 11:51:49 25,430 posts
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    I don't think I could be more middle class if I tried.
  • evilashchris 24 Sep 2012 11:52:55 6,962 posts
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    That tory nut-job telling that policeman to 'know his place' probably set back the classless society a few years.

    Twitter: @COToole

  • MetalDog 24 Sep 2012 11:55:58 23,708 posts
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    I think quite a lot of us (myself included) got bumped up from working class to middle class with the decline of blue-collar jobs and the increase in the white collar office work. I suspect those of us on this border are in quite a tenuous position though, one bad patch away from disaster.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • ModishNouns 24 Sep 2012 11:56:12 4,654 posts
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    I do think the middle class seems to have grown. It's also the class of the internet, though, so internet forums in general will be predominately middle class.
  • MetalDog 24 Sep 2012 11:57:14 23,708 posts
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    @evilashchris He was on my mind rather, yes =)

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • kalel 24 Sep 2012 11:59:03 86,420 posts
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    I think the main issue I have with the term is to question its worth. Even if you could accurately define the boundaries between the classes, what would be the value of that? Of than to discriminate in some form?

    Class and race are similar topics in some ways ("some", please note the word "some", the important word is here "some").
  • Chopsen 24 Sep 2012 12:00:34 15,727 posts
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    There is such a thing as middle-class, but it's just a marketing demographic these days. It's not a sociopolitical thing. Hardly anyone who counts themselves as middle-class actually own the means of their own production (to take a Marxist view of it) and ironically those that do tend to work in traditionally "working class" industries (self-employed builders, plumbers, etc).

    So yeah, middle class describes the kind of holidays you go on and the food that eat, and the shops that you visit, but it's not more of a thing than "yuppies" "dinkys" or bored housewives who read 50 Shades. It's a concept for selling stuff. Stuff including votes, and beliefs.

    We *are* a divided nation, in terms of wealth inequality. But that's is more complicated and a lot more serious than if you shop in Waitrose or not.
  • nickthegun 24 Sep 2012 12:01:30 58,889 posts
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    MetalDog wrote:
    I think quite a lot of us (myself included) got bumped up from working class to middle class with the decline of blue-collar jobs and the increase in the white collar office work. I suspect those of us on this border are in quite a tenuous position though, one bad patch away from disaster.
    I think thats pretty spot on. I probably earn a similar amount to a good builder or a plumber but they would likely count themselves as working class because its hard graft.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    He totally called it

  • kalel 24 Sep 2012 12:02:24 86,420 posts
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    Chopsen wrote:
    There is such a thing as middle-class, but it's just a marketing demographic these days. It's not a sociopolitical thing. Hardly anyone who counts themselves as middle-class actually own the means of their own production (to take a Marxist view of it) and ironically those that do tend to work in traditionally "working class" industries (self-employed builders, plumbers, etc).

    So yeah, middle class describes the kind of holidays you go on and the food that eat, and the shops that you visit, but it's not more of a thing than "yuppies" "dinkys" or bored housewives who read 50 Shades. It's a concept for selling stuff. Stuff including votes, and beliefs.

    We *are* a divided nation, in terms of wealth inequality. But that's is more complicated and a lot more serious than if you shop in Waitrose or not.
    Yes. This.
  • MetalDog 24 Sep 2012 12:03:38 23,708 posts
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    I think while we have an 'underclass' it's a system that we should be actively scrutinising, rather than ignoring. Countless studies show that countries with a big divide between the rich and poor are unhappy countries and our divide is getting bigger, isn't it?

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • kalel 24 Sep 2012 12:04:25 86,420 posts
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    Rich and poor yes. Calling that divide "class" I think misses the point.
  • MetalDog 24 Sep 2012 12:06:55 23,708 posts
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    Hmm, I think that's a bit nitpicky to be honest.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • nickthegun 24 Sep 2012 12:07:42 58,889 posts
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    A lot of it seems to stem from education. A lot of the poor kids, despite being quite bright, just thought 'fuck it' and actively tried to screw their schooling up.

    Now, predictably, they are exactly the kind of people the daily mail wet their pants over and are actively creating the next generation of people who dont give a fuck.

    Its incredibly simplistic, but I think finding the switch to turn 'fuck it' into 'theres no way im living in shit like my mum and dad' is really key to closing the gap.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    He totally called it

  • kalel 24 Sep 2012 12:08:29 86,420 posts
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    No, it's not. If you focus on class you miss the real issue that needs addressing.
  • mcmonkeyplc 24 Sep 2012 12:10:08 39,387 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    No, it's not. If you focus on class you miss the real issue that needs addressing.
    Which is?

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • LeoliansBro 24 Sep 2012 12:10:49 43,252 posts
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    'Middle class' as a phrase has been co-opted as shorthand for 'what most people are'. Kinda makes it a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    And the divide between rich and poor, whilst on a worsening trend, is still spectacular compared to a century ago.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

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