Celebrity Tax Avoidance Page 7

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  • Chopsen 21 Jun 2012 14:15:41 15,129 posts
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    If I was on 3 million a year, and someone If I'm paying for tax advice said "if you do this, you massively reduce how much tax you pay, and it's all legal, and loads of other people are doing it" I can't say, hand on heart, that I'd go "Nah, I'll stick to paying 50% in tax, actually." I know that it is a lot easier to call him a greedy git from the side-lines.

    That's not a moral defence, but I think the context *is* actually very open to interpretation. What it boils down to is what constitutes "fair," and that is subjective. It can only really be arrived at at a consensus and in general. Picking specific individuals and saying "I don't like how much tax you're paying" is a daft way of running it. It results in short-term knee-jerk kinds of solutions which just end up causing more problems further down the line.

    *Everybody* know the tax system in the UK is a mess, and it has been forever. Successive generations of politicians have backed out of simplifying it though, and resorted to fiddling at the edges. This does nothing more than make it more complicated, create new loop-holes etc.

    Blame the game, not the player.
  • LeoliansBro 21 Jun 2012 14:16:01 41,863 posts
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    I loved it when NI was capped at the start of the higher rate tax band in recognition of the reduced burden on society higher rate tax payers were.

    I do appreciate this is totally inappropriate these days though.

    Edited by LeoliansBro at 14:17:28 21-06-2012

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • spamdangled 21 Jun 2012 14:17:01 27,197 posts
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    disusedgenius wrote:
    From what I understand the Treasury doesn't really section off different sources of income for different things - it all just goes into the big ol' pot to get divided up later. Feel free to correct me, that's just something my brain seems to think it's heard.
    No you're right. There's been an argument for years that NI and Income Tax should just be folded together (they're all recorded in one place anyway). There's supposed to be a consultation on it soon.

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  • Trowel 21 Jun 2012 14:18:43 16,846 posts
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    Lukus wrote:
    Greed, for want of a better word, is immoral.
    Fixed.
  • Dougs 21 Jun 2012 14:19:06 64,887 posts
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    Chopsen has it bang on.
  • LeoliansBro 21 Jun 2012 14:19:46 41,863 posts
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    Facepalm wrote:
    I wonder which pot the 4 subsidised bars in the house of commons comes out of.
    They're awesome.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • mrpon 21 Jun 2012 14:21:22 27,640 posts
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    Lord Sugars take on it.

    WTF

    Give yourself 5 or gig, you're worth it.

  • LeoliansBro 21 Jun 2012 14:22:42 41,863 posts
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    Dougs wrote:
    Chopsen has it bang on.
    Absolutely.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • X201 21 Jun 2012 14:23:09 14,692 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    disusedgenius wrote:
    From what I understand the Treasury doesn't really section off different sources of income for different things - it all just goes into the big ol' pot to get divided up later. Feel free to correct me, that's just something my brain seems to think it's heard.
    No you're right. There's been an argument for years that NI and Income Tax should just be folded together (they're all recorded in one place anyway). There's supposed to be a consultation on it soon.

    Sir Humphrey: "Prime Minister, the Treasury doesn't work out what they need to spend and then think how to raise the money."

    Jim Hacker: "What does it do?"

    Sir Humphrey: "They pitch for as much as they think they can get away with and then think what to spend it on."
  • kalel 21 Jun 2012 14:24:24 83,839 posts
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    Chopsen wrote:
    If I was on 3 million a year, and someone If I'm paying for tax advice said "if you do this, you massively reduce how much tax you pay, and it's all legal, and loads of other people are doing it" I can't say, hand on heart, that I'd go "Nah, I'll stick to paying 50% in tax, actually." I know that it is a lot easier to call him a greedy git from the side-lines.
    Surely the means by which you do it is somewhat of relevance. If we're talking about tax-deductible charitable contributions or something, that's one thing. Paying massive amounts of money to a company who then "loans" virtually the same amount back which you don't have to pay tax on because it's a "loan"? I reckon I can hand on my heart say that my response would be "nah, not into that idea, that's a bit much".

    *Everybody* know the tax system in the UK is a mess, and it has been forever. Successive generations of politicians have backed out of simplifying it though, and resorted to fiddling at the edges. This does nothing more than make it more complicated, create new loop-holes etc.

    Blame the game, not the player.
    Yeah, fine, tax is fucked, but we still all take personal responsibility for what we do, and I reserve the right to pass judgment on what other people choose to do when it reaches such (imo) blatantly morally repugnant extremes. "The system is fucked up" doesn't excuse individual behaviour, with tax or anything else.
  • senso-ji 21 Jun 2012 14:28:32 5,300 posts
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    Question about the K2 scheme - if the money is returned as a 'loan', then does that mean the company that provides this service is regulated by the FSA, and follows all the rules associated with that? Can't imagine a company is allowed to trade as a creditor by acting as a tax avoidance scheme.
  • mcmonkeyplc 21 Jun 2012 14:28:49 38,857 posts
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    Job seekers allowance.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • spamdangled 21 Jun 2012 14:32:06 27,197 posts
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    senso-ji wrote:
    Question about the K2 scheme - if the money is returned as a 'loan', then does that mean the company that provides this service is regulated by the FSA, and follows all the rules associated with that? Can't imagine a company is allowed to trade as a creditor by acting as a tax avoidance scheme.
    The loans come from a Jersey company. The FSC doesn't have jurisdiction in Jersey.

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  • X201 21 Jun 2012 14:32:35 14,692 posts
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    senso-ji wrote:
    Question about the K2 scheme - if the money is returned as a 'loan', then does that mean the company that provides this service is regulated by the FSA, and follows all the rules associated with that? Can't imagine a company is allowed to trade as a creditor by acting as a tax avoidance scheme.
    Based in the Channel Islands.
    I presume that puts them outside the reach of the FSA
  • gang_of_bitches 21 Jun 2012 14:33:55 4,931 posts
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    senso-ji wrote:
    Facepalm wrote:
    X201 wrote:
    Just seen this.

    (Right click and "View Image" if text is too small)
    Direct link: 3,484 Jimmys

    Nice work Vodafone.
    If that is true, then it doesn't make sense. Does the head of HMRC really have the authority to overturn illegal tax contributions?
    No he doesn't! The fact that he's been allowed to resign rather than be sacked is pretty piss-poor.
  • boo 21 Jun 2012 14:35:54 11,602 posts
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    /wonders whether this topic might crop up on Question Time tonight

    /gazes into crystal ball

    Mmmm...yes!

    I suspect the Conservative panellist is being briefed as we speak about how 'this is a completely different situation to Vodaphone etc'.

    Just Another Lego Blog

  • spamdangled 21 Jun 2012 14:37:01 27,197 posts
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    gang_of_bitches wrote:
    No he doesn't! The fact that he's been allowed to resign rather than be sacked is pretty piss-poor.
    Not even that - he "chose" to retire.

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  • mcmonkeyplc 21 Jun 2012 14:38:02 38,857 posts
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    Hope they have Jimmy Carr as a panelist :)

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • spamdangled 21 Jun 2012 14:38:18 27,197 posts
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    boo wrote:
    /wonders whether this topic might crop up on Question Time tonight

    /gazes into crystal ball

    Mmmm...yes!

    I suspect the Conservative panellist is being briefed as we speak about how 'this is a completely different situation to Vodaphone etc'.
    Should be fun - Kenneth Clarke is representing the Tories on there tonight.

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  • senso-ji 21 Jun 2012 14:39:02 5,300 posts
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    Hmmm. If the FSA doesn't have jurisdiction over Jersey (or anywhere else) then the money being sent to Carr and others can't be considered a 'loan' (as it's not accredited), and must surely be declared as either a gift or a salary? If it's a gift, then that can be challenged legally, and if it's a salary then it can be taxed?
  • Dougs 21 Jun 2012 14:39:19 64,887 posts
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    Do we know who is on yet?

    As for taxes, there are virtually no hypothecated taxes and everything goes into the consolidated pot. Even road tax hasn't been hypothecated since the 30s. Vaguely rings a bell that Air Passenger Duty is, but I'd have to check
  • gang_of_bitches 21 Jun 2012 14:39:29 4,931 posts
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    @darkmorgado

    You're right. I couldn't remember whether it was resign or retire and couldn't be arsed to check. Am I right in remembering that this was in spite of a pretty scathing report from the Treasury Select Committee?
  • Trowel 21 Jun 2012 14:41:28 16,846 posts
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    boo wrote:
    I suspect the Conservative panellist is being briefed as we speak about how 'this is a completely different situation to Vodaphone etc'.
    I's not a ministerial dept - run by incompetent civil servants safe from the hands of incompetent ministers.
  • spamdangled 21 Jun 2012 14:43:00 27,197 posts
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    gang_of_bitches wrote:
    @darkmorgado

    You're right. I couldn't remember whether it was resign or retire and couldn't be arsed to check. Am I right in remembering that this was in spite of a pretty scathing report from the Treasury Select Committee?
    Pretty much. He'd been involved in a truckload of fuck-ups over the years, the Vodafone thing was just the final straw (he almost got the boot after the big fuckup with people getting tax demands and his refusal to apologise). I think it was George Osborne that let him quietly retire rather than be sacked or resign.

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  • spamdangled 21 Jun 2012 14:43:59 27,197 posts
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    Dougs wrote:
    Do we know who is on yet?
    Ken Clarke, Andy Burnham, Len McCluskey, Ruth Lea and Julie White.

    Reading up on that Ruth Lea woman, I think she'll have plenty to say about the Jimmy Carr thing - she's a right-wing economist who believes in less employee rights, lower benefits, and big reductions in the top rate of income tax.

    Edited by darkmorgado at 14:45:29 21-06-2012

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  • urban 21 Jun 2012 14:49:20 10,892 posts
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    Really, who gives a shit? What I wanna know is what are the government doing while everyone's screaming out Gary Barlow's name?
  • Deleted user 21 June 2012 14:51:49
    disusedgenius wrote:
    Aargh. wrote:
    So everyone is immoral given the option.
    I somewhat presumed that 'people' != 'everyone'.
    I'll rephrase, society is immoral given the option and do an elected governments role is to help enforce moral behaviour through taxation (amongst other things)?
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