High Speed Trains in the UK

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  • urban 10 Jan 2012 10:17:39 10,926 posts
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    High speed 2 eh!?

    Green light
    The transport secretary will attempt to underline the benefits of high-speed rail to the rest of the country, beyond the planned routes between London, Birmingham, Manchester and Leeds, as she gives the green light to the 32bn project on Tuesday.

    Justine Greening will confirm the first phase of the route from London to Birmingham on which high-speed trains will start running in 2026. She will also stress that the investment will mean faster, better services, and more trains to destinations beyond Britain's second city, and emphasise the first phase should be only the foundation of a future network.

    With opponents of the project questioning the huge expenditure for time savings of half an hour between London and Birmingham, the government will stress that early beneficiaries of the scheme will be places off or beyond the HS2 route. Some high-speed trains although not the double deckers mooted at the weekend by Greening would continue onward on existing track to destinations on the west side of the country. Liverpool, Glasgow and Preston will first to benefit from these through-running services from 2026, travelling the first stage from London to the West Midlands at more than 200mph.
    Having read the statistics on the Japanese bullet train and the UKs track record with large public projects meant for 'the greater good' I can see this falling on it's arse.

    They don't even know what trains they want or who's going to build them!

    Big fatty white elephant with Japanese people pointing and laughing.

    p.s 25% on legal fees? Really?
  • urban 10 Jan 2012 10:23:44 10,926 posts
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    Here are those stats I was talking about...

    The Tōkaidō Shinkansen is the world's busiest high-speed rail line. Carrying 151 million passengers a year (March 2008), it has transported more passengers (over 4 billion, network over 6 billion) than any other high speed line in the world. Between Tokyo and Osaka, the two largest metropolises in Japan, up to thirteen trains per hour with sixteen cars each (1,323 seats capacity) run in each direction with a minimum headway of three minutes between trains.
    Puncutality...

    The Shinkansen is very reliable thanks to several factors, including its near-total separation from slower traffic. In 2003, JR Central reported that the Shinkansen's average arrival time was within six seconds of the scheduled time. This includes all natural and human accidents and errors and was calculated over roughly 160,000 Shinkansen trips completed.
    Safer than not building one at all

    During the Shinkansen's 45-year, nearly 7 billion-passenger history, there have been no passenger fatalities due to derailments or collisions, despite frequent earthquakes and typhoons. Injuries and a single fatality have been caused by doors closing on passengers or their belongings; attendants are employed at platforms to prevent such accidents. There have, however, been suicides by passengers jumping both from and in front of moving trains.
    The only derailment of a Shinkansen train in passenger service occurred during the Chūetsu Earthquake on 23 October 2004. Eight of ten cars of the Toki No. 325 train on the Jōetsu Shinkansen derailed near Nagaoka Station in Nagaoka, Niigata. There were no casualties among the 154 passengers. In the event of an earthquake, an earthquake detection system can bring the train to a stop very quickly. A new anti-derailment device was installed after detailed analysis of the derailment.
    We will not beat that.
  • disusedgenius 10 Jan 2012 10:24:39 5,230 posts
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    urban wrote:
    We will not beat that.
    Do we have to?
  • woodnotes 10 Jan 2012 10:28:07 4,922 posts
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    Ugh I'll be in to my 40s when this is complete.
  • President_Weasel 10 Jan 2012 10:31:36 8,986 posts
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    I've been on the shinkansen between Osaka and Tokyo and it's a truly amazing train service. I don't think they're talking about something identical for the UK, but an investment in rail infrastructure is a good thing to see.
  • THFourteen 10 Jan 2012 10:32:08 32,896 posts
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    i wish they'd just spend the 32bn on bank station to make the fucking escalators work
  • DaM 10 Jan 2012 10:32:12 12,906 posts
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    woodnotes wrote:
    Ugh I'll be in to my 40s when this is complete.
    I'll be just about retired!

    I'm not sure the economics will stack up - it will be a premium service, will the slightly reduced time be enough to entice people to switch from what they do at the moment? Is there a huge amount of commuting between Birmingham and London?
  • Fab4 10 Jan 2012 10:38:43 5,980 posts
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    High speed trains are cool to travel on.
  • Fab4 10 Jan 2012 10:39:38 5,980 posts
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    DaM wrote:
    woodnotes wrote:
    Ugh I'll be in to my 40s when this is complete.
    I'll be just about retired!

    I'm not sure the economics will stack up - it will be a premium service, will the slightly reduced time be enough to entice people to switch from what they do at the moment? Is there a huge amount of commuting between Birmingham and London?
    I think there's quite a bit.
  • boo 10 Jan 2012 10:45:48 11,706 posts
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    I'd probably pay 32 billion to get out of Birmingham faster.

    Just Another Lego Blog

  • elstoof 10 Jan 2012 10:59:13 6,657 posts
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    You'd be better comparing the proposed train service the the TGV network considering that's basically what was extended though the tunnel for HS1. It's hopefully not intended as just a run through between London and the midlands - Birmingham and beyond would benefit from the high speed link to mainland Europe, the big issue is how they do it. Theres big ideas about rehashing Euston for the service but walking from St Pancras to Euston for your connection is a terrible idea when the only justification is opening snazzy retail units.
  • Rhythm 10 Jan 2012 10:59:38 2,471 posts
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    President_Weasel wrote:
    but an investment in rail infrastructure is a good thing to see.
    This is true, but is a network of separate high-speed links really the way to go?
  • TheSaint 10 Jan 2012 11:05:25 14,201 posts
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    elstoof wrote:
    You'd be better comparing the proposed train service the the TGV network considering that's basically what was extended though the tunnel for HS1. It's hopefully not intended as just a run through between London and the midlands - Birmingham and beyond would benefit from the high speed link to mainland Europe, the big issue is how they do it. Theres big ideas about rehashing Euston for the service but walking from St Pancras to Euston for your connection is a terrible idea when the only justification is opening snazzy retail units.
    Well if we are comparing it to the TGV network then you have to do a similar thing in Paris. At least Euston is close to St Pancras, getting from the Gare de Nord to the Gare de Lyon took ages.
  • Dougs 10 Jan 2012 11:07:47 66,747 posts
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    Loving the Guardian write-up:

    Manchester would also see reduced journey times southwards even before the network's second phase is finished in 2032, connecting it to Birmingham. At that point, should a proposed spur joining the Eurostar route out of St Pancras be built, passengers from Paris will have the tantalising prospect of reaching Manchester on direct trains in 3 hours.

    All those Parisiens, dreaming of Manchester.
  • sport 10 Jan 2012 11:25:06 12,584 posts
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    High speed train between Tokyo and Manchester or GTFO!!!
  • senso-ji 10 Jan 2012 11:25:19 5,801 posts
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    If we want this to work, then we'll have to hire a Japanese company to design and implement it. Of course, that won't be allowed in the whole 'British jobs for British workers' climate we live in, but it's the only way we can make sure that we get value for money in the consultation and legal phase.
  • X201 10 Jan 2012 11:30:07 15,157 posts
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    boo wrote:
    I'd probably pay 32 billion to get out of Birmingham faster.
    /Attracts localnotail's attention
    /points at boo
  • Kosmoz 10 Jan 2012 11:32:15 7,600 posts
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    By 2026 we might not even use trains. We will all have floating cars or something equally as futuristic.

    Every girl I ever kissed I was thinking of a pro footballer.

  • elstoof 10 Jan 2012 11:43:29 6,657 posts
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    TheSaint, yeah it's pretty shit in Paris when you need to connect too but we have the opportunity to do something different right now. HS1 already skirts around the fringes of north east London, shooting it along a bit further shouldn't be too difficult.
  • elstoof 10 Jan 2012 11:46:51 6,657 posts
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    senso-ji wrote:
    If we want this to work, then we'll have to hire a Japanese company to design and implement it. Of course, that won't be allowed in the whole 'British jobs for British workers' climate we live in, but it's the only way we can make sure that we get value for money in the consultation and legal phase.
    The last British (actually Canadian) firm just lost their last roll of the dice to Seimens because they couldn't deliver so I doubt this contract will remain here.
  • Deleted user 10 January 2012 11:48:23
    DaM wrote:
    woodnotes wrote:
    Ugh I'll be in to my 40s when this is complete.
    I'll be just about retired!

    Not a hope. Retirement age will be into the 90's by then.
  • fergal_oc 10 Jan 2012 12:05:18 2,763 posts
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    I can't help but be cynical and think that something dodgy is going on backdoors for them to want to push this through.

    As someone has said the economics of the thing just don't seem to add up considering it'll be a premium service for business people and the well off.
  • Grunk 10 Jan 2012 12:10:53 4,718 posts
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    I wonder if the Shinkansen has to deal with sofas being placed on the line...

    I would like to see the government commissioning a 2-5 year project to develop a machine that can lay 1 mile of track a day, (it could run on the tacks that it lays).
    Then we could have a real highspeed network, that could be built incredibly quickly.
  • Tom_Servo 10 Jan 2012 12:14:35 17,330 posts
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    Considering everything else that's being cut, spending absolutely mega-bucks (and no doubt the end cost will be higher than 32bn) sits rather uneasily with me.

    Sorry, no money for youth centres or libraries but you can now travel half an hour quicker from London to Birmingham! Actually you won't, because you won't be able to afford the extortionate train ticket in the first place.

    BAH.
  • Fab4 10 Jan 2012 12:20:32 5,980 posts
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    Infrastructure investment is what will drag the country out of recession....not investment in Youth centre or libraries, as depressing as that may seem.
  • sport 10 Jan 2012 12:22:26 12,584 posts
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    "We're in a hole, we just gotta dig ourselves out"

    - Lloyd

    Edited by sport at 12:22:34 10-01-2012
  • Grunk 10 Jan 2012 12:25:25 4,718 posts
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    Alternatively:

    In periods of high unemployment, public infrastructure projects can be used as a means to create jobs and develop skills, providing the capital for such projects out of public funds ensures a wages will be paid and and injects cash flow into the economy at a time when the private sector is unwilling to take on large projects.

    The bonus is that we get a nice new train line as well.
  • Fab4 10 Jan 2012 12:27:20 5,980 posts
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    Grunk wrote:
    Alternatively:

    In periods of high unemployment, public infrastructure projects can be used as a means to create jobs and develop skills, providing the capital for such projects out of public funds ensures a wages will be paid and and injects cash flow into the economy at a time when the private sector is unwilling to take on large projects.

    The bonus is that we get a nice new train line as well.
    Yeah, that's what I meant...only more eloquently put ;) :D
  • President_Weasel 10 Jan 2012 12:27:31 8,986 posts
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    Fab4 wrote:
    Infrastructure investment is what will drag the country out of recession....not investment in Youth centre or libraries, as depressing as that may seem.
    Investment in everything is what's going to John Maynard Keynes our way out of this slump, the same way the Hoover Dam and the vast swathe of public works programs New Dealed the US into a manufacturing superpower in time for WW2.

    Big rail project plus employment for librarians please, so the librarians can spend money on things rather than claiming benefits, and because public libraries are the apotheosis of civilisation, dammit.

    Milton Friedman can get stuffed. He and his ilk are the reason we're in this mess.
  • urban 10 Jan 2012 12:27:46 10,926 posts
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    I just hope they invest more heavily in the National Grid with more sustainable energy to power this super dooper train with all the juice it needs and more.

    That's the only way travel will get/stay cheaper.

    I'm guessing Japan use lots of Nuclear power plants to power theirs?

    Edited by urban at 12:32:53 10-01-2012
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