A Thread of Ice and Fire Page 10

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  • stryker1121 13 Apr 2013 13:49:06 773 posts
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    Ice N Fire suffers from the bloat of many fantasy series that run past a trilogy, but even the last 2 books are better than most of what's out there. I'd recommend Books 4 and 5 despite their failings, as there's some good character moments and the world-building is still impressive. I do hope Martin reigns the story in for WoW, however. Some folks think the series could stretch to eight books from seven, which would not be good for anyone.
  • Bremenacht 13 Apr 2013 14:19:07 19,684 posts
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    I've not read a lot of this stuff - Donaldson is probably the closest I've come to this sort of saga, and it just cannot be as bad as Donaldson for all the angsty crap. I was going to go with Kindle but someone pointed out that I'll be constantly map-reading, so maybe paperback is best!

    What do people feel about reading the books or watching the TV series first?
  • Mr_Sleep 13 Apr 2013 14:23:53 17,401 posts
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    ubergine wrote:
    In book 4, the whole arc about Brienne looking for Sansa Stark was just ridiculous. We the reader knew where she was and that Brienne wouldn't find her, so the whole arc adds nothing to further the plot, it's just a massive pointless diversion.
    Really don't read this spoiler if you haven't read the books, really just don't.The conclusion of that storyline is pretty tedious too, all of that time invested and then he kills her. I really didn't get what the point was of all that, I quite enjoyed the Brienne character and doing her in was just pointless, I seem to recall it's supposed to be a reveal of the supposedly dead Mrs Stark but that whole plot line is suspect and crap to me.

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • PazJohnMitch 13 Apr 2013 14:28:21 8,750 posts
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    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    ubergine wrote:
    In book 4, the whole arc about Brienne looking for Sansa Stark was just ridiculous. We the reader knew where she was and that Brienne wouldn't find her, so the whole arc adds nothing to further the plot, it's just a massive pointless diversion.
    Really don't read this spoiler if you haven't read the books, really just don't.The conclusion of that storyline is pretty tedious too, all of that time invested and then he kills her. I really didn't get what the point was of all that, I quite enjoyed the Brienne character and doing her in was just pointless, I seem to recall it's supposed to be a reveal of the supposedly dead Mrs Stark but that whole plot line is suspect and crap to me.
    I think the point was the character of Jaime Lanister not Brienne. I actually found that character rather interesting. Essentially he had an impossible decision and he essentially choose the least bad option. However he has never been able to discuss it with anyone. So everyone assumes he is evil when he is merely naive and has also been severely manipulated by his own sister.

    Edited by PazJohnMitch at 14:29:35 13-04-2013
  • Mr_Sleep 13 Apr 2013 14:42:47 17,401 posts
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    PazJohnMitch wrote:
    I think the point was the character of Jaime Lanister not Brienne. I actually found that character rather interesting. Essentially he had an impossible decision and he essentially choose the least bad option. However he has never been able to discuss it with anyone. So everyone assumes he is evil when he is merely naive and has also been severely manipulated by his own sister.
    Yeah that's probably a good shout.

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • Baihu1983 13 Apr 2013 14:55:30 3,653 posts
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    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    The conclusion of that storyline is pretty tedious too, all of that time invested and then he kills her. I really didn't get what the point was of all that, I quite enjoyed the Brienne character and doing her in was just pointless, I seem to recall it's supposed to be a reveal of the supposedly dead Mrs Stark but that whole plot line is suspect and crap to me.
    Shes not dead as she appears towards the end of Dance with Dragons in Jamie's last chapters of that book and Stoneheart is introduced [brilliantly i might add] at the end of Storm of Swords.

    Edited by Baihu1983 at 14:55:56 13-04-2013
  • Mr_Sleep 13 Apr 2013 14:56:48 17,401 posts
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    Baihu1983 wrote:
    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    The conclusion of that storyline is pretty tedious too, all of that time invested and then he kills her. I really didn't get what the point was of all that, I quite enjoyed the Brienne character and doing her in was just pointless, I seem to recall it's supposed to be a reveal of the supposedly dead Mrs Stark but that whole plot line is suspect and crap to me.
    Shes not dead as she appears towards the end of Dance with Dragons in Jamie's last chapters of that book and Stoneheart is introduced [brilliantly i might add] at the end of Storm of Swords.
    Ah okay, I guess I must be remembering things incorrectly.

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • Baihu1983 13 Apr 2013 14:59:01 3,653 posts
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    Some of her chapters in Feast could have been cut but i don't think Martin should have just scrapped her story simply because we the reader know where Sansa is
  • Mola_Ram 13 Apr 2013 15:03:18 8,341 posts
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    As far as I remember, it's implied that zombie Catelyn let her live so she could go lead Jaime into a trap.

    I really hate that there are zombies in this. Although I guess it will be cool to see zombie Gregor.
  • Baihu1983 13 Apr 2013 15:13:56 3,653 posts
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    Mola_Ram wrote:
    As far as I remember, it's implied that zombie Catelyn let her live so she could go lead Jaime into a trap.

    I really hate that there are zombies in this. Although I guess it will be cool to see zombie Gregor.
    Shes not a zombie really. She can't talk properly because of having her throat slit. She had been dead for 3 days when they found her body which is why bringing her back didn't work as well as it could have.
    But she can talk softly when holding her hand over her throat.
    To say shes a zombie is to imply she just shuffles about groaning.

    Same with Gregor but we don't know what he is yet only that he probably doesn't have a human head. Its not said if he has spoken or not just that he never eats or drinks or goes to the loo.


    Edited by Baihu1983 at 15:14:44 13-04-2013
  • stryker1121 13 Apr 2013 15:15:57 773 posts
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    I had no problems w/ the named character POV chapters in books 4 and 5. Even Brienne's "pointless" journey was a good yarn for what it was, and the fight at the tavern w/ Rorge and Biter was some nasty, effective stuff. It's when Martin expanded into Dorne and the Iron Islands and Prince Quentyn (Arianne's bro)that it felt the story was spreading itself thin.
  • Mola_Ram 13 Apr 2013 15:51:16 8,341 posts
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    Baihu1983 wrote:
    Shes not a zombie really. She can't talk properly because of having her throat slit. She had been dead for 3 days when they found her body which is why bringing her back didn't work as well as it could have.
    But she can talk softly when holding her hand over her throat.
    To say shes a zombie is to imply she just shuffles about groaning.

    Same with Gregor but we don't know what he is yet only that he probably doesn't have a human head. Its not said if he has spoken or not just that he never eats or drinks or goes to the loo.
    She came back to life. To me, that is a zombie.

    But aside from arguing semantics, I do not like that people can come back to life in this.
  • stryker1121 13 Apr 2013 16:16:22 773 posts
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    Bremenacht wrote:
    I've not read a lot of this stuff - Donaldson is probably the closest I've come to this sort of saga, and it just cannot be as bad as Donaldson for all the angsty crap. I was going to go with Kindle but someone pointed out that I'll be constantly map-reading, so maybe paperback is best!

    What do people feel about reading the books or watching the TV series first?
    How far did you get into Donaldson's stuff? Once you get past the purple prose and uber angst there's a good story there, and Thomas Covenant is fascinating character in spite of himself.
  • shamblemonkee 13 Apr 2013 17:31:32 14,665 posts
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    Is Melisandre a dragon in hiding or something possibly. reading them back through and there's a passage i 4 that indicates she's possibly not mortal
  • Baihu1983 13 Apr 2013 18:54:29 3,653 posts
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    Doubt it but shes probably a lot older than she looks.
  • Khanivor 13 Apr 2013 19:29:57 41,299 posts
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    I'd like to go back and retread the books to appreciate the tale with the benefit of foreknowledge. Saying that, I'll probably still forget most of what happened by the time the linkage occurs, 15,000 words later.
  • Bremenacht 13 Apr 2013 19:44:26 19,684 posts
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    stryker1121 wrote:
    Bremenacht wrote:
    I've not read a lot of this stuff - Donaldson is probably the closest I've come to this sort of saga, and it just cannot be as bad as Donaldson for all the angsty crap. I was going to go with Kindle but someone pointed out that I'll be constantly map-reading, so maybe paperback is best!

    What do people feel about reading the books or watching the TV series first?
    How far did you get into Donaldson's stuff? Once you get past the purple prose and uber angst there's a good story there, and Thomas Covenant is fascinating character in spite of himself.
    All of it. Well. The Mirror books, Thomas Covenant and the Gap series. You're quite right - there are good stories there. But hellfire (or whatever it was that TC would say) there's so much angst and self-examination in there! Which made the climatic stuff so good, when we got climatic stuff. The battle near the end of The Illearth Stone outdid Helms Deep or Minas Tirith.
  • Baihu1983 13 Apr 2013 20:06:00 3,653 posts
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    Has anyone tried reading Feast/Dragons together?

    Sure i saw a link showing which chapters to read in order and people said it makes the slower parts of Feast more bearable[never had a problem with it myself even if it did get a little heavy at times].
  • PazJohnMitch 14 Apr 2013 01:50:51 8,750 posts
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    The problem with feast is their is to much Cersei.

    Reading them together would dilute it somewhat but there would still be to much Cersei.
  • Mola_Ram 14 Apr 2013 02:11:52 8,341 posts
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    I actually liked the Cersei chapters.
  • Baihu1983 14 Apr 2013 08:48:51 3,653 posts
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    So did i.

    Was funny seeing how bat shit crazy she gets once no one is around to keep her in line. Hopefully she dies in one of the last 2 books. I will actually be annoyed if she lives
  • LeoliansBro 15 Apr 2013 09:11:22 44,966 posts
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    Something occurred to me over the weekend: GRRM has a recurring case of anticlimaxitis. He sets up a character, gives them a detailed and interesting backstory, spends a lot of time on them and then kills them off just to mess with the reader. He does it with Robb, with the Red Viper guy, with Dany's husband and her brother, with Ned. BUT if he lets a character evolve within the books he's writing they tend to escape death and live on. The less exposition and the more actual development a character has, the more they survive. Look at Brienne, look at the Mountain, look at Catelyn, look at Halfhand, hell look at Tyrion. And don't tell me Jon is dead. All these are introduced as sketchy quasi-caricatures, all fleshed out through their actions within the novels, all extremely hard to kill.

    Could just be that GRRM likes second rung characters more than first rung ones on the social scale as well.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • disusedgenius 15 Apr 2013 09:50:19 5,637 posts
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    Yep, something I've noticed as well. The trouble is that he's fast running out of genuinely interesting characters to fuck us around with.

    Though the Prince who pops up, just to get fried by dragons amused me greatly.
  • mcmonkeyplc 15 Apr 2013 09:55:08 39,571 posts
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    disusedgenius wrote:
    Yep, something I've noticed as well. The trouble is that he's fast running out of genuinely interesting characters to fuck us around with.

    Though the Prince who pops up, just to get fried by dragons amused me greatly.
    Well how about the cunt starts wrapping up with the story then?! :)

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • disusedgenius 15 Apr 2013 09:59:43 5,637 posts
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    That would be nice. The past couple of books have really be an exercise in getting the characters to where the fuck they need to be. Still, rushing it at this point would just be odd.
  • LeoliansBro 15 Apr 2013 10:02:22 44,966 posts
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    Problem is, he's expanded on the original premise so much that arc-wise it feels like we're about 25% in (it's only just winter FFS) and he's only got two books left to cram in a right-sized and fitting conclusion.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • disusedgenius 15 Apr 2013 10:06:34 5,637 posts
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    Yeah, I'll believe the 'only 2 left' claim when I don't see the 3rd.
  • mcmonkeyplc 15 Apr 2013 10:08:41 39,571 posts
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    It'll be 2 MASSIVE books.

    Split into 4 parts

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • spindizzy 15 Apr 2013 10:16:13 6,618 posts
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    Sadly he'll probably die before it all gets wrapped up...
  • mcmonkeyplc 15 Apr 2013 10:17:54 39,571 posts
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    That's ok. HBO will probably do a better job of finishing it than he would anyway :p

    Come and get it cumslingers!

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