A Thread of Ice and Fire Page 5

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  • LeoliansBro 10 Apr 2012 13:00:45 41,870 posts
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    Then you're in for some dull shite come the Dance of Dragons.

    Which you pretty much are anyway.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Tricky 10 Apr 2012 13:02:45 4,303 posts
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    @Leolian'sBro - you're assuming that John Snow is actually dead. I'm not convinced of that just yet, despite how the last book ended.
  • LeoliansBro 10 Apr 2012 13:05:02 41,870 posts
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    I am, indeed, assuming that. I don't think GRRM knows whether that's true either at this point.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • jakuande 10 Apr 2012 14:14:26 192 posts
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    'this is the story of westeros'
    I agree, I think George is now caught between writing a history of his imaginary world and telling us an interesting story.

    You can see where he went off track by looking at the Point of View characters for each book. They start off tightly focussed with 6 PoV characters from the Stark family, Tyrion to give us an idea what the enemy is up to and Danny to make the world seem bigger than just Westeros:

    Book 1 : Eddard, Catelyn, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Jon, Tyrion, Dany.

    Then we lose one Stark PoV but gain 2 new characters so we can see more of what's going on in the world, retaining the focus on the Starks with 5 out of 9 PoVs :

    Book 2 : Catelyn, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Jon, Tyrion, Dany, Davos, Theon.

    Book 3 drops one of the extra PoVs from book 2 but adds two new ones. However these are both characters we are already familiar with so the reader can quickly get up to speed. Its also pretty clear that the focus remains on the Starks with 5 out of 10 PoVs :

    Book 3 : Catelyn, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Jon, Tyrion, Dany, Davos, Jaime, Sam.

    Then book 4 drops the ball, suddenly we lose 5 of the main PoVs we have had from book 1 (yes some come back later but we have a book to get through first!) We then get saddled with a massive 8 new PoVs, many of whom we have hardly if ever met before. We only have 2 Starks, one of whom is away doing their own thing abroad and the other who is in hiding, pretending to be someone else. Needless to say the Stark family saga is pretty much dead in the water for the duration of this book which leaves the reader pretty much lost.

    Book 4 : Sansa, Arya, Jaime, Sam, Cersei, Brienne, a bunch of other people who add nothing to the story.
  • Tricky 10 Apr 2012 16:05:09 4,303 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    I am, indeed, assuming that. I don't think GRRM knows whether that's true either at this point.
    Oh that's unfair - I think he knows. It's been pretty clearly signposted a few times that rather than Stannis being Azor Ahai reborn, it's actually Jon who is yet to be reborn and become Azor Ahai. That's one theory anyway.
  • Nanocrystal 10 Apr 2012 16:25:36 959 posts
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    Yeah that prophecy being (maybe) fulfilled, along with the one about Dany (Sun rising in the west, etc.) were two things that sailed completely over my head when I read ADwD.
  • LeoliansBro 10 Apr 2012 16:39:24 41,870 posts
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    Tricky wrote:
    LeoliansBro wrote:
    I am, indeed, assuming that. I don't think GRRM knows whether that's true either at this point.
    Oh that's unfair - I think he knows. It's been pretty clearly signposted a few times that rather than Stannis being Azor Ahai reborn, it's actually Jon who is yet to be reborn and become Azor Ahai. That's one theory anyway.
    Have to say, this passed me by as well. Any elaboration?

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • nickthegun 10 Apr 2012 16:49:55 55,887 posts
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    I dont know about reborn, but I did get the impression that Jon Snow would ultimately be the aragorn.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    He totally called it

  • Tricky 11 Apr 2012 11:43:46 4,303 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    Tricky wrote:
    LeoliansBro wrote:
    I am, indeed, assuming that. I don't think GRRM knows whether that's true either at this point.
    Oh that's unfair - I think he knows. It's been pretty clearly signposted a few times that rather than Stannis being Azor Ahai reborn, it's actually Jon who is yet to be reborn and become Azor Ahai. That's one theory anyway.
    Have to say, this passed me by as well. Any elaboration?
    Can't remember specific references off the top of my head as it's been a few months since I read the book, but look at Melisandre's increased interest in Jon along with various hints that Stannis isn't quite what he's being bigged up to be. It's worth a re-read if you missed that stuff as I honestly think that's where he's going with it. Jon is too important a character with too much character arc left to explore for him to be truly dead. Maybe that's me being biased because he's my favourite character alongside Tyrion, but if you check the various message boards where people discuss the themes of the books you'll find a lot of people who are of the same opinion.
  • LeoliansBro 11 Apr 2012 12:28:41 41,870 posts
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    His mother had purple eyes IIRC.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Nanocrystal 11 Apr 2012 12:35:37 959 posts
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    It's a bit more specific than that with the prophecy too. I tried googling to find the exact details, but had no luck. For example the Azor Ahai prophecy mentions stuff about smoke and salt, and stars above, and at the moment Jon is stabbed there's a fire, the guy stabbing him is crying, and a guy with three stars as his sigil is being thrown about overhead by the giant.

    Then with the prophecy about Dany, the sun rising in the west and setting in the east is about the prince from Dorne (sigil is a sun) who travelled to meet her from the west and was killed by the dragon in the east.

    Obviously a lot of ambiguity in these scenes so nothing is certain, could just be GRRM playing with his audience.
  • kalel 17 Apr 2012 13:31:42 83,878 posts
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    Bumped for those than ironically can't read.
  • mcmonkeyplc 17 Apr 2012 13:32:22 38,900 posts
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    What happens in the TV series when people can't read?

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • Deleted user 17 April 2012 16:20:00
    mcmonkeyplc wrote:
    What happens in the TV series when people can't read?
    GRRM writes the TV show first.
  • xandoodle 24 Apr 2012 09:41:56 459 posts
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    jakuande wrote:
    'this is the story of westeros'
    I agree, I think George is now caught between writing a history of his imaginary world and telling us an interesting story.

    ...

    Then book 4 drops the ball, suddenly we lose 5 of the main PoVs we have had from book 1 (yes some come back later but we have a book to get through first!) We then get saddled with a massive 8 new PoVs, many of whom we have hardly if ever met before. We only have 2 Starks, one of whom is away doing their own thing abroad and the other who is in hiding, pretending to be someone else. Needless to say the Stark family saga is pretty much dead in the water for the duration of this book which leaves the reader pretty much lost.

    Book 4 : Sansa, Arya, Jaime, Sam, Cersei, Brienne, a bunch of other people who add nothing to the story.
    Books 4/5 are essentially one book split geographically. So the whole 'dropping the ball' suddenly looks a bit wafer thin... Obviously the Stark family saga looks dead in the water - none of them are in Kings Landing.
  • mcmonkeyplc 24 Apr 2012 09:58:40 38,900 posts
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    So Robbs wife appears to have changed to a Volantese? I wonder if they're going to keep him alive longer than in the books. Although the red wedding would make one fuckton of a season finale...for next season

    Spoilers for anyone that hasn't read Storm of swords.

    Edited by mcmonkeyplc at 09:59:13 24-04-2012

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • Dougs 24 Apr 2012 10:01:57 64,912 posts
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    Was a bit puzzled by that. Doesn't make any sense in terms of the politics of The Red Wedding. Which was all a set up by Tywin with the Freys. Not sure the response would have been as severe had it been an unknown family he married into, as opposed to the Westerlings. Weird.

    Edited by Dougs at 10:03:08 24-04-2012
  • mcmonkeyplc 24 Apr 2012 10:07:25 38,900 posts
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    Dougs wrote:
    Was a bit puzzled by that. Doesn't make any sense in terms of the politics of The Red Wedding. Which was all a set up by Tywin with the Freys. Not sure the response would have been as severe had it been an unknown family he married into, as opposed to the Westerlings. Weird.
    Yeah but the family the girl was part of wasn't exactly big anyway. I think it's just as easy to piss off the freys by marrying a random...even more so maybe.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • jakuande 24 Apr 2012 10:18:28 192 posts
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    @xandoodle

    You're quite right about books 4 and 5 being one book split in two. In fact the decision to do this is really the root of the problem. If GRRM had written one book with the extraneous viewpoints taken out then the story would have been vastly improved. He even had a plan of how to do this by jumping forward in time.
  • Dougs 24 Apr 2012 10:20:45 64,912 posts
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    mcmonkeyplc wrote:

    Yeah but the family the girl was part of wasn't exactly big anyway. I think it's just as easy to piss off the freys by marrying a random...even more so maybe.
    Well, they made quite a big thing about the family being one of the oldest and had more status than the Freys, if not the power. But I guess it doesn't really matter
  • xandoodle 24 Apr 2012 10:31:40 459 posts
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    @jakuande wrote:
    @xandoodle

    You're quite right about books 4 and 5 being one book split in two. In fact the decision to do this is really the root of the problem. If GRRM had written one book with the extraneous viewpoints taken out then the story would have been vastly improved. He even had a plan of how to do this by jumping forward in time.
    Guess this is where you and me are different then, in hindsight I enjoyed book 4 and Kings Landing.

    It was a slog, but after book 5 was worth it.
  • mcmonkeyplc 24 Apr 2012 10:34:46 38,900 posts
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    Fuck that,80% of Feast for Crows and 60% of Dance with dragons was a total waste of time.

    If he does that with Winds of Winter I will skull fuck him and never read anymore of his bullshit.

    Edited by mcmonkeyplc at 10:37:13 24-04-2012

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • Dougs 24 Apr 2012 10:38:10 64,912 posts
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    You won't really, you'll bitch and moan about it here
  • mcmonkeyplc 24 Apr 2012 10:48:15 38,900 posts
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    Dougs wrote:
    You won't really, you'll bitch and moan about it here
    He won't be able to write after I skull fuck him anyway, so it's moot point :)

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • MrDigital 25 Apr 2012 13:06:57 1,866 posts
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    Been watching the TV show and was reminded of Bronn. What's happened to him last we know? My mind is so blank when trying to remember it.

    Formerly TheStylishHobo and Geesh.

  • mcmonkeyplc 25 Apr 2012 13:16:17 38,900 posts
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    Geesh wrote:
    Been watching the TV show and was reminded of Bronn. What's happened to him last we know? My mind is so blank when trying to remember it.
    He was given some land and woman and cersei tried to have him killed but failed cause well cersei is a failure

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • Salaman 25 Apr 2012 13:23:31 18,249 posts
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    mcmonkeyplc wrote:
    So Robbs wife appears to have changed to a Volantese? I wonder if they're going to keep him alive longer than in the books. Although the red wedding would make one fuckton of a season finale...for next season

    Spoilers for anyone that hasn't read Storm of swords.
    Aaaah. Good call. I watched the HBO epside Monday night and when Robb was talking to that Volante woman I was thinking to myself I don't remember anything like this, what an odd addition.Seems to serve no purpose.

    You're probably right but I think it doesn't matter in the end. What I took from the book was that the old Frey fellar was mightly pissed off because Robb broke his word and because he's got some inferiority complex and feels passed over all the time. Getting one of his married to Robb, the wolf, king of the north was a scoop for him. Then he was shunned and his pride was so damaged he was going to see revenge.
    Who Robb settled on instead of the Frey girl seemed quite inconsequential.
  • MrDigital 25 Apr 2012 15:38:04 1,866 posts
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    mcmonkeyplc wrote:
    Geesh wrote:
    Been watching the TV show and was reminded of Bronn. What's happened to him last we know? My mind is so blank when trying to remember it.
    He was given some land and woman and cersei tried to have him killed but failed cause well cersei is a failure
    Ah right. I wonder if he'll have absolutely no loyalty to Tyrion if Tyrion comes back to Westeros and is poor. I'd like to think there's a little bit of camaraderie there on top of the money :D

    Formerly TheStylishHobo and Geesh.

  • Fydria 29 Apr 2012 13:17:38 557 posts
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    Finally finished Dance with Dragons and can safely read within this thread now. Hello!
  • President_Weasel 29 Apr 2012 13:22:15 8,604 posts
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    Tricky wrote:
    LeoliansBro wrote:
    I am, indeed, assuming that. I don't think GRRM knows whether that's true either at this point.
    Oh that's unfair - I think he knows. It's been pretty clearly signposted a few times that rather than Stannis being Azor Ahai reborn, it's actually Jon who is yet to be reborn and become Azor Ahai. That's one theory anyway.
    Salt and Smoke though, surely that's Dany? Born in a storm, reborn in a great big fire.
    It seems likely that the Red Lady will either heal Jon from the brink of death or bring him back to life after the Julius Caesar scene but that doesn't make him Azor Ahai - and that's even if the whole prophecy thing isn't bollocks anyway.
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