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  • ecureuil 8 Oct 2012 13:40:56 76,525 posts
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    Tryhard wrote:
    They should leave them alone,it gives the player the chance to feel Godlike.If you get bored with one shot kills put it in the bank.And run with a more normal shield.

    These sort of items create buzz and talking points in a loot game.It is up to the player if they want to put the game on easy mode.
    It's damaging to the online aspect though. Some guy running around with a Bee + Conference Call is going to ruin the fun of anybody he's playing with. I compared it to the Spread Needle from PSO in a previous post, it made PSO a lot less fun because the guy with the Spread Needle would wipe all the enemies out before anybody else could catch up. It's going to be similar here. Especially since, like PSO, duping is so rife and so many people are running around with this combo now.

    Edited by ecureuil at 13:41:21 08-10-2012
  • Tryhard 8 Oct 2012 13:42:59 3,706 posts
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    You can kick people if they are ruining your co-op experience.So I do not see that as a problem.
  • ecureuil 8 Oct 2012 14:06:53 76,525 posts
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    Jazzassin wrote:
    ecureuil wrote:
    There's a pretty interesting discussion on the Gearbox forums about the weapon variety in the game. Seems Borderlands 2 has FAR less weapon variety than the first game.

    I knew it felt that way but the numbers are surprising. Here's the important part.
    I think that's just a case of rose-tinted glasses... I played the original literally two weeks before BL2 came out, and at least as far as SMGs went it seemed like there were all of three different skins for them.

    Also it seems people are complaining that each manufacturers weapons look like each other instead of being made out of random parts... and that's just a silly, silly thing to complain about.
    It's not rose-tinted glasses. Here's the data:

    BORDERLANDS 1: 2,484,375 different weapon models.
    BORDERLANDS 2: 61,875 different weapon models.

    That's in terms of how the weapon looks, not the stats. If you include all stats then it looks like this:

    BORDERLANDS 1: 17,750,000 possible combinations.
    BORDERLANDS 2: 586,099 possible combinations.

    These numbers may seem big anyway, but you do end up seeing a lot of the same weapon. Every Maliwan SMG looks basically the same just in different colours, every Jacobs pistol looks the same, and so on. The problem is that the weapon gimmicks play too much in to how the weapon performs. Every Torgue weapon is explosive, and explosive now has a very slow bullet velocity to the point where the weapons are not worth using. I know I'm not alone in just not using Torgue guns at all, they're all basically useless as far as I'm concerned.

    I'm sure we've all found types of weapons we don't like. I also don't like Dahl sniper rifles or Jacobs assault rifles. Having to hammer the trigger for every shot is a pain, and it puts a physical restriction on the ROF that you can never overcome. It's not a problem if this is a random option on the gun, but this is tied to every single Jacobs assault rifle. In the first game, these weapon gimmicks were a random chance and not assigned to a manufacturer. You'd get mashers, shotguns that shot a smiley face, enormous magazine sizes, anarchy's (double bullet stream), It Shoots Rockets, thumpers, and it was randomly assigned. All this is now gone, and replaced with one gimmick per manufacturer. It severely reduces the variation in weapons.

    Also, purple weapons of the same type all look similar. This is because they changed the algorithm that generates them. In BL1, the game would randomly pick from 7 different parts and calculate the colour/rarity based on which parts turn up. In BL2, the rarity of the weapon is chosen first, and it picks the best parts afterwards. The pool for purple parts is much much smaller so you end up with most of them looking the same because there is literally no opportunity for lesser parts to make it on to the gun like in the first game.

    It's become pretty clear that the loot generation has taken a huge step back in this game. I hope it can be fixed in DLC but I feel like it's way too ingrained in the loot system of this game to be changed at this point.
  • dsmx 8 Oct 2012 14:07:09 7,563 posts
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    It's giving people without hacking the game to be able to 1 hit kill most things and anything that powerful either needs to be taken out the game or be nerfed.

    On the subject of the lower amount of gun combinations in some respects that's a good thing, the problem with the first borderlands was the shear amount of shit guns in it. The sea of awful guns you had to wade through to get something half decent was insane. Borderlands 2 may have less guns overall but it has a far higher proportion of decent guns to chose from.

    Edited by dsmx at 14:27:41 08-10-2012

    "If we hit that bullseye the rest of the dominoes will fall like a a house of cards, checkmate." Zapp Brannigan

  • mcmothercruncher 8 Oct 2012 14:30:20 6,479 posts
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    Um, do I ever get to spend all of this money I'm amassing?

    I'm level 20 and sitting on 40k I've got nothing worth buying with... aside from spunking it on fruit machines.
  • dsmx 8 Oct 2012 14:31:49 7,563 posts
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    Spend it in the vending machines then, there's sometimes some really nice stuff from the deal of the day.

    "If we hit that bullseye the rest of the dominoes will fall like a a house of cards, checkmate." Zapp Brannigan

  • Shikasama 8 Oct 2012 14:37:09 6,622 posts
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    ecureuil wrote:
    It's not a problem if this is a random option on the gun, but this is tied to every single Jacobs assault rifle. In the first game, these weapon gimmicks were a random chance and not assigned to a manufacturer. You'd get mashers, shotguns that shot a smiley face, enormous magazine sizes, anarchy's (double bullet stream), It Shoots Rockets, thumpers, and it was randomly assigned. All this is now gone, and replaced with one gimmick per manufacturer. It severely reduces the variation in weapons.
    It also led to the vast, vast majority of stuff you picked up being utterly worthless though. You kept guns an awful lot longer in Borderlands 1 because there was such little point in swapping them for anything else that wasn't a named weapon.
  • ecureuil 8 Oct 2012 14:45:33 76,525 posts
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    dsmx wrote:Borderlands 2 may have less guns overall but it has a far higher proportion of decent guns to chose from.
    I don't really agree with this, feels to me like BL2 has more trash guns in it, partly due to the manufacturer limitations I mentioned.

    In BL2 I basically only use Jacobs sniper rifles. They're the only good, accurate bolt action sniper rifles in the game. I don't like the throw away reload and I don't like how the explosive element is handled in this game. That means I NEVER use Tediore or Torgue. You can say it's my fault for not liking those weapons, but the thing is, the first game never did this. Thumpers were unpopular in the first game, but there was always the possibility you'd find one with some amazing features, cause that was the luck of the loot. They've restricted all the weapons so much now.

    Previously, magazine size was a variable. Every gun could have a massive magazine, and if you got lucky you'd find one. Not anymore. Large magazines are the gimmick of bandit guns now, but the problem is bandit guns are generally pretty crap. I want to find a full auto Jacobs assault rifle with 70 rounds, but you can't. I want to find a Jacobs masher, but you can't, they're gone, and replaced with nothing.

    I'm selling basically everything in this game and good random loot drops from regular enemies are incredibly rare. All the best weapons are either quest rewards, or legendary drops from bosses. If you clear a bandit camp out, all you'll find is whites and greens, and they won't even be worth the time of day. Even the vendors were better in the first game, if the deal of the day wasn't any good, even the regular loot could be worth buying. In BL2, if it's not on deal of the day it's not worth buying. I have a level 50 character and I have never bought an item that wasn't deal of the day.
  • ecureuil 8 Oct 2012 14:49:03 76,525 posts
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    Shikasama wrote:
    ecureuil wrote:
    It's not a problem if this is a random option on the gun, but this is tied to every single Jacobs assault rifle. In the first game, these weapon gimmicks were a random chance and not assigned to a manufacturer. You'd get mashers, shotguns that shot a smiley face, enormous magazine sizes, anarchy's (double bullet stream), It Shoots Rockets, thumpers, and it was randomly assigned. All this is now gone, and replaced with one gimmick per manufacturer. It severely reduces the variation in weapons.
    It also led to the vast, vast majority of stuff you picked up being utterly worthless though. You kept guns an awful lot longer in Borderlands 1 because there was such little point in swapping them for anything else that wasn't a named weapon.
    It's the opposite way around for me, and by reading some of the posts on the official forums, I know I'm not alone in this. In the first game I'd switch weapons constantly, every weapons chest you'd find something great, even random enemies and skags would drop better weapons. Almost everything that drops in BL2 is vendor fodder, and that's because they've removed all the variables that made weapons interesting. Loot chests in BL2 have really lost their magic for me.
  • mikew1985 8 Oct 2012 14:56:51 12,608 posts
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    There was an awesome orange weapon deal of the day in the guns vendor for me yesterday but I couldn't afford it at 150k.

    I was panicked for about 10 seconds trying to think of any possible way to make up the cash (and cursing my frivellous tipping of moxxi earlier that evening). Had to just let it time out :(


    So close...
  • bbvDJC 8 Oct 2012 14:58:22 1,690 posts
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    I agree with ecu in a way, the guns were a lot better in BL1.

    Overall though it doesn't detract from the game in my opinion.
  • kinky_mong 8 Oct 2012 15:03:39 9,973 posts
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    Anyone know a good place to get a purple or better relic? It's the only thing I need to get that "equip all purple or higher gear" achievement.

    I'll never get my Orc looking the same again.

  • ecureuil 8 Oct 2012 15:07:44 76,525 posts
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    bbvDJC wrote:
    I agree with ecu in a way, the guns were a lot better in BL1.

    Overall though it doesn't detract from the game in my opinion.
    Yeah I still love the game, don't get me wrong. It'll depend on the DLC, but I really think that once the dust has settled and the hype gone, the first game will be the one that people go back to.
  • mikew1985 8 Oct 2012 15:09:47 12,608 posts
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    I don't know, granted I never really got into the first but this seems a much better game to me, much more interesting overall.
  • RedSparrows 8 Oct 2012 15:19:06 22,068 posts
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    ecureuil wrote:
    Shikasama wrote:
    ecureuil wrote:
    It's not a problem if this is a random option on the gun, but this is tied to every single Jacobs assault rifle. In the first game, these weapon gimmicks were a random chance and not assigned to a manufacturer. You'd get mashers, shotguns that shot a smiley face, enormous magazine sizes, anarchy's (double bullet stream), It Shoots Rockets, thumpers, and it was randomly assigned. All this is now gone, and replaced with one gimmick per manufacturer. It severely reduces the variation in weapons.
    It also led to the vast, vast majority of stuff you picked up being utterly worthless though. You kept guns an awful lot longer in Borderlands 1 because there was such little point in swapping them for anything else that wasn't a named weapon.
    It's the opposite way around for me, and by reading some of the posts on the official forums, I know I'm not alone in this. In the first game I'd switch weapons constantly, every weapons chest you'd find something great, even random enemies and skags would drop better weapons. Almost everything that drops in BL2 is vendor fodder, and that's because they've removed all the variables that made weapons interesting. Loot chests in BL2 have really lost their magic for me.
    Loot chests were shit in BL1, so that's pretty odd.
  • ecureuil 8 Oct 2012 15:21:19 76,525 posts
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    No they weren't. That's a crazy statement, they were the best thing about the game and you quite clearly get MUCH better loot from them than you do in this game. People farms the Claptrap loot room and Knoxx's Armory like crazy, ain't nobody farming any loot chests in BL2 because you never get anything good from them. Can't even get legendaries from the best loot chest in the game.
  • pinebear 8 Oct 2012 15:26:50 8,565 posts
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    I'd have to agree with Red, perhaps it's a fickle memory but I don't recall getting great weapons from loot chests in comparison to random drops. Perhaps a few times, giving me undue expectations of a incendiary sniper or SMG, but not regularly.

    Farming loot chests, sure, but usually in order to sell their contents. Certainly the vending machines in the Claptrap loot room were a great help in that regard.

  • ecureuil 8 Oct 2012 15:35:04 76,525 posts
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    Loots chests were basically the whole reason I played the first game. Nothing beats the feeling of finishing a dungeon and being treated to a loot chest. You don't really get that in the same way in this game. :(
  • RedSparrows 8 Oct 2012 15:41:30 22,068 posts
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    ecureuil wrote:
    No they weren't. That's a crazy statement, they were the best thing about the game and you quite clearly get MUCH better loot from them than you do in this game. People farms the Claptrap loot room and Knoxx's Armory like crazy, ain't nobody farming any loot chests in BL2 because you never get anything good from them. Can't even get legendaries from the best loot chest in the game.
    I never played the DLC much - all I remember is the odd loot chest having some fun guns in, but clearly random, and then those ones on the roof areas of that town, which you could save/load farm. It wasn't very exciting.

    By shit I mean 'part of a poor system' rather than never having anything great in them. I never felt BL got loot right for me: I never had the same feeling as that in WoW, for instance. Different games I know, but loot is crucial to both.

    Edited by RedSparrows at 15:42:25 08-10-2012
  • bbvDJC 8 Oct 2012 15:49:23 1,690 posts
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    I kind of like the characters in BL1 better too.

    Although I've just started a 'zerker and its quite fun.
  • FuzzyDuck 8 Oct 2012 15:52:26 3,908 posts
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    mikew1985 wrote:
    I don't know, granted I never really got into the first but this seems a much better game to me, much more interesting overall.
    This.
  • ecureuil 8 Oct 2012 16:00:17 76,525 posts
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    I thought the loot in the first game was done well, but could have been improved a lot. It's pretty clear to me that the loot system has regressed in the second game though. The numbers don't lie, there really are far fewer combinations, I noticed it without even looking for it as I found myself using the same kinds of weapons through most of the game. All those fast firing Jacobs revolvers might as well be the same gun. I know for sure I changed weapons far more often in the first game. In BL2, I picked up the buffalo rifle at about level 25 and used it until I completed the game at around level 33.

    What they should have done:

    - The manufacturer gimmick should have been a random weapon part. The Tediore grenade reload is cool, but maybe only have it appear as a random chance?

    - Every manufacturer should make every type of weapon. They all make four types, the only one they all make is pistols. Jacobs don't make launchers or SMG's, Maliwan don't make assault rifles, Bandit don't make sniper rifles, etc.

    - Make repeater and revolver separate again.

    - Bring back Atlas as a rare loot drop. The company is gone but there's no reason for all their weapons to disappear from Pandora. Add in Atlas parts that can appear on guns, suggesting that other manufacturers have taken apart those guns and used them in their own.

    - Reintroduce more awesome random variables on weapons. At least give my Jacobs revolver a chance of appearing as a masher.

    I don't know if it's because of technical reasons, or workload reasons, or if they simply wanted every manufacturer to feel different, but it makes them feel different to each other, but very similar within each type. Once you've tried one Maliwan SMG you've tried them all.

    Edited by ecureuil at 16:01:39 08-10-2012
  • PearOfAnguish 8 Oct 2012 16:06:14 7,144 posts
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    I'd like some weapon customisation, slots for adding damage, effects, mag size, scopes etc.
  • mikew1985 8 Oct 2012 16:07:58 12,608 posts
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    I don't know, I have used numerous Maliwan SMG's and a lot of them have felt very different to me.

    The different effects and firing behaviours have all be interesting.
  • Shikasama 8 Oct 2012 16:13:01 6,622 posts
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    ecureuil wrote:
    Shikasama wrote:
    ecureuil wrote:
    It's not a problem if this is a random option on the gun, but this is tied to every single Jacobs assault rifle. In the first game, these weapon gimmicks were a random chance and not assigned to a manufacturer. You'd get mashers, shotguns that shot a smiley face, enormous magazine sizes, anarchy's (double bullet stream), It Shoots Rockets, thumpers, and it was randomly assigned. All this is now gone, and replaced with one gimmick per manufacturer. It severely reduces the variation in weapons.
    It also led to the vast, vast majority of stuff you picked up being utterly worthless though. You kept guns an awful lot longer in Borderlands 1 because there was such little point in swapping them for anything else that wasn't a named weapon.
    It's the opposite way around for me, and by reading some of the posts on the official forums, I know I'm not alone in this. In the first game I'd switch weapons constantly, every weapons chest you'd find something great, even random enemies and skags would drop better weapons. Almost everything that drops in BL2 is vendor fodder, and that's because they've removed all the variables that made weapons interesting. Loot chests in BL2 have really lost their magic for me.
    Fair points bud, I must admit all I remember about BL1 is how I feel about it now as opposed ot how I felt when I was playing it as heavily as I am 2. I think I am more inclined to agree with you with regards to loot distribution. I don't really like the idea of 'just farm that boss until the Assault Rifle drops' as I think that is quite lazy and harks back to an age of MMO gaming we should all be glad to see dying!
  • MatMan562 8 Oct 2012 16:46:27 2,315 posts
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    To me, the loot in this game feels like there's loads more variety than there was in the original, I get that the numbers are vastly reduced but each gun feels much more unique to eachother than the original ever did. I've been constantly changing weapons in BL2 whereas I rarely changed weapons in the original. Likewise, i've been looking at the full stats for each item whereas I only ever really checked the damage/ capacity in the original (though that could be more due to a personal change rather than anything the gamed did).

    I do agree that the loot chests don't seem to be as important as before but I think that is more down the regular drops being much better. In the original it would always be the same weapons being dropped by the same enemy type, Rowdy Machine Guns from a specific bandit type for example. I haven't noticed that this time so i'm always checking all the loot that gets dropped.

    XBL/ PSN/ Steam/ NNID - MatMan562

  • FogHeart 8 Oct 2012 17:33:17 944 posts
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    It seems to me the changes have 'flattened out' the graph a bit. Guns are consistently OK but never way too powerful or utterly useless. This way the red-text guns you get as part of quests are still big events and you want to use them straight away, whereas they could be a bit meh in BL1 since you'd picked up something better in a random drop or chest. I'm guessing that Gearbox saw the stats in BL1 and found that so many chests were opened per player that they were eventually finding a really rare item and sticking with it for a long time, so quest reward guns got ignored. That's not good because you felt like you were getting ripped off when the quest was complete.
  • themanfromdelmonte 8 Oct 2012 17:50:13 567 posts
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    I'm still ignoring Quest guns, just because they don't feel like they're mine. I know apart from buying from Marcus, you're tea-leafing all of them. But a good gun dropped by a grunt, just makes it easier to identify it as my character's. As opposed to one coming from a specific character, where I'll always think "This is/was insert boss name's gun."
  • ecureuil 8 Oct 2012 17:50:18 76,525 posts
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    I prefer the best weapons to be random and the quest rewards to be disposable. Half of the appeal is finding a random unique weapon that only you have. Having the best stuff come from quests means that everyone is running around with the same thing, which as it turns out, is what's happened. BL1 had the hellfire SMG as the best siren gun, but there were huge variations even in that, and there was no guaranteed way to get it.
  • Jazzassin 8 Oct 2012 18:32:10 75 posts
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    ecureuil wrote:
    It's pretty clear to me that the loot system has regressed in the second game though. The numbers don't lie, there really are far fewer combinations...
    Errr... that is, if the numbers some random guy on a forum posted are accurate, and he didn't leave anything out. We all know people on the Internet never distort the truth to try and prove their point...

    Gearbox has said this game has tons more guns than the first one, I'd trust them more.

    I've personally experienced more variety of gun effects (not looks) in this game, but then I never played the DLC of the first one much.
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