Spec ops: The Line Page 6

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  • Oh-Bollox 17 Apr 2013 12:50:13 5,181 posts
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    Without it being so heavy-handed, a lot of people (even more, that is) would have missed the point. Gamers as a whole are not used to subtlety, especially in shooters.
  • King_Edward 17 Apr 2013 12:54:23 11,454 posts
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    It's not going for subtlety though. It's trying to hit you over the head with it, and make you feel like a jerk. Subtlety is all well and good, but it wouldn't fit with this story.

    Edited by King_Edward at 12:58:57 17-04-2013
  • FabricatedLunatic 17 Apr 2013 14:37:54 12,996 posts
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    I know it isn't supposed to be subtle, but I'd have preferred to not have felt as though I was being blatantly manipulated every step of the way. And I can honestly say I've not had any guilt over what I've done in the game, not least because I've had little say in Walker's actions (and Walker himself has only done what he thought was right).

    Still enjoyed the game, though, and I appreciate what Yager have tried to do.
  • King_Edward 17 Apr 2013 16:50:58 11,454 posts
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    You did have a choice though. You could've stopped playing. Instead you choose to push Walker on even when it became clear he was so horribly misguided.

    That's not me telling you "you didn't get it" btw. Just how I saw it.

    Edited by King_Edward at 16:53:04 17-04-2013
  • dsmx 17 Apr 2013 18:35:17 7,582 posts
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    "Do you feel like a hero yet?"

    "If we hit that bullseye the rest of the dominoes will fall like a a house of cards, checkmate." Zapp Brannigan

  • FabricatedLunatic 17 Apr 2013 19:12:45 12,996 posts
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    King_Edward wrote:
    You did have a choice though. You could've stopped playing. Instead you choose to push Walker on even when it became clear he was so horribly misguided.
    I do get that. But for me it wouldn't have been a consideration because for whatever I didn't feel the horror of what was happening, that I was in any way responsible for it. Other than at times when I actually made decisions, I was merely helping the story tell itself rather than creating a story in which I was the lead character. There was a lack of involvement/personal investment, hence not being terribly impressed when the game told me it was all my fault and that I was still a good person.

    I felt much worse about killing some of the Colossi in SotC than I did about anything I did in Spec Ops. That made me think about what I was doing and why.
  • Mike1989 17 Apr 2013 19:14:19 41 posts
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    King_Edward wrote:
    You did have a choice though. You could've stopped playing. Instead you choose to push Walker on even when it became clear he was so horribly misguided.
    Could of stopped playing lol... I really don't think thats how they were trying to make you think.
    Yeah lets make a game where the player becomes so disgusted in his actions he stops playing and trades it in before he even sees the finale!
    If a game makes you want to stop playing then its a bad game. That's just how I see it.

    I liked the game but it defiantly could of been better. If the choices had felt like they were my own maybe it would of tugged on the heartstrings a little.
    But as it is, its a forgettably decent game.

    Sent from my Nokia 3210

  • Oh-Bollox 17 Apr 2013 19:24:24 5,181 posts
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    http://gamingbolt.com/aftermath-crossing-the-line-with-walt-williams


    WW: There are 4 official endings and 1 unofficial ending. 1 in Konrad’s penthouse. 3 in the epilogue. And 1 in real life, for those players who decide they can’t go on and put down the controller.
  • bobdebob 18 Apr 2013 13:47:12 579 posts
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    I've bought and clocked Spec Ops: The Line and well, it's incredibly
    average.

    It's another game which some gamers turn to for that ever elusive art
    status. It's another game where some gamers gloss over parts of the game
    just to proclaim games can be art.

    Gameplay-wise it's basically a GOW-clone with fiddlier controls, grenade
    spam with no dodge roll and fewer, though quite impressive, set pieces
    and absolutely nothing except the exotic locale to set it apart from its
    contemporaries. Fun for awhile but it becomes a slog.

    Then there's the plot and setting.

    Freak sandstorms hit Dubai, doesn't accept foreign aid but the Arab
    League doesn't help them for some reason (or even mentioned, isn't Dubai
    important to that region?), for some reason Colonel Konrad decides to go
    over and help and takes troops with him (I'm not in the military but
    taking 1000 or so soldiers somewhere must require higher authority) and
    he radios this as well.

    They disappear for SIX months and after a radio transmission where Konrad
    says he's failed, the US sends a grand total of 3 people to check out
    the situation.

    I'm convinced that they picked Dubai, purely because it looked exotic to
    them, since the Emiratis look like your sterotypical ragheads who speak
    Farsi
    (despite the official language being Arabic and every sign is
    written in Arabic), throw stones and carry AKs. They ignore the fact
    Emiratis make up only small amount of the population (being 2+ million)
    and many are wealthy (apparently all the rich escaped sometime after the
    sandstorm) and the rest of the population is composed of poor migrant workers
    (particularly South-Asian). So the city containing only 5000 people is
    complete bollocks.

    And there's the white phosphorus mortar scene where after the game starts blaming you, the player, for all the deaths you just caused despite the fact you have no choice in the matter.

    I understand that this scene is supposed to call back to COD4's 'Death From Above', (for me personally the most spine chilling section in any game, at least on the first go) but I don't think Yager really understood how that mission worked in COD4.

    There's more problems with Spec Ops, but the post is long enough.
  • Mike1989 18 Apr 2013 14:04:02 41 posts
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    There should be a like button for posts bobdebob.
    Good summary of the game.

    Sent from my Nokia 3210

  • King_Edward 18 Apr 2013 14:20:11 11,454 posts
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    Way off with the Death from Above comparison. Almost diametrically opposed in fact. DfA was justification for the violence to come, and that had come before. The WP was an example of something wholly unjustifiable.

    One illustrates the need for a win at all costs mentally, the other shows how disasterous that mentally can be.


    Edited by King_Edward at 16:44:59 18-04-2013
  • bobdebob 18 Apr 2013 15:05:32 579 posts
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    Yager did base it off the mission without understanding it.

    Up until Death From Above COD4 missions consisted of your (now-)standard shooting gallery of close-quarters realistic-ish violence, Death From Above flips this around by having you control an AC-130 and having the player detached from the violence on the ground by the fuzzy videofeed and only vaguely identifiable enemies. It's even reflected in the AC130 chatter: "Good kill, good kill" and "Good shot, I see lotsa little pieces down there." It's almost exactly like those videoreels you see on the news and those leaked military videos.

    Death From Above is highlighting the disconnect between technological detachment and actual consequences. (Whether it's intentional commentary, I don't know)


    It's what made that mission so unsettling.

    Spec Ops tries the same without as much impact by showing the consequences in an unsubtle way and the only other commentary we can glean from this is 'accidents happen in wars'.


    It wasn't unjustified, if you accept that Walker is blind and dumb as fuck, (if remember correctly) since every soldier you come across starts shooting straight away.

    Edited by bobdebob at 15:42:52 18-04-2013
  • Oh-Bollox 18 Apr 2013 15:49:40 5,181 posts
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    bobdebob wrote:
    Yager did base it off the mission without understanding it.

    Up until Death From Above COD4 missions consisted of your (now-)standard shooting gallery of close-quarters realistic-ish violence, Death From Above flips this around by having you control an AC-130 and having the player detached from the violence on the ground by the fuzzy videofeed and only vaguely identifiable enemies. It's even reflected in the AC130 chatter: "Good kill, good kill" and "Good shot, I see lotsa little pieces down there." It's almost exactly like those videoreels you see on the news and those leaked military videos.

    Death From Above is highlighting the disconnect between technological detachment and actual consequences. (Whether it's intentional commentary, I don't know)


    It's what made that mission so unsettling.

    Spec Ops tries the same without as much impact by showing the consequences in an unsubtle way and the only other commentary we can glean from this is 'accidents happen in wars'.
    1) It's 'based on'.

    2) You couldn't be more wrong. From here:

    This is where the brilliant designers at Yager had the idea of mimicking the “Death From Above” mission in Modern Warfare. The idea was that we, as gamers, have been trained to disconnect from a game when the gameplay experience drastically changes. We stop thinking about the enemies as Soldiers and instead see them as glowing dots that need to be turned off. Once the Player disconnects from the reality of the situation, something truly horrible happens. And it hits Players in the gut, because now they have to face the consequences of their actions. They don’t get teleported to the next location. They have to face the human cost of their actions.
    Brendan Keogh's book, Killing is Harmless, discusses it at length. Keogh's idea, obviously, but:

    Of course, the real choice Walker has is to turn around and leave Dubai, and the real choice the player has is to not play a military shooter that asks you to drop white phosphorous on people...Walker is choosing to be in a situation where he has no choice, and so am I. The Line doesn’t really want players to stop playing at this point. It simply wants us to accept responsibility for the situations we allow ourselves to be in...As the AC-130U gunner of Modern Warfare, I never had to see what I wrought, but The Line forces me to walk right through the carnage I have unleashed. It gives me the safety and the absolving distance of a targeting computer then rips it away again, rubbing my face in what I have done.
    Edited by Oh-Bollox at 15:53:47 18-04-2013

    Edited by Oh-Bollox at 15:55:19 18-04-2013
  • bitch_tits_zero_nine 18 Apr 2013 15:59:12 6,654 posts
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    bit deep in here. Booted this up again recently but thought it was way shitter than when I first played it; I think because there is no fantasy element. Just soldiers.
  • bobdebob 18 Apr 2013 16:27:35 579 posts
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    @Oh-Bollox

    2) You couldn't be more wrong. From here:

    This is where the brilliant designers at Yager had the idea of mimicking the “Death From Above” mission in Modern Warfare. The idea was that we, as gamers, have been trained to disconnect from a game when the gameplay experience drastically changes. We stop thinking about the enemies as Soldiers and instead see them as glowing dots that need to be turned off. Once the Player disconnects from the reality of the situation, something truly horrible happens. And it hits Players in the gut, because now they have to face the consequences of their actions. They don’t get teleported to the next location. They have to face the human cost of their actions.
    That's basically the gist of what I said earlier.


    As the AC-130U gunner of Modern Warfare, I never had to see what I wrought
    That was the point except it was a (perhaps unintentional) commentary on modern warfare about the disconnect between what's on-screen and what's happening down below. Have you ever seen those military ac-130 videos where they gun down people and buildings with the similar cold, detached matter-of-fact chatter to the COD4 mission?

    I mean the rest of the COD4, gives you very graphic moments of violence.


    It simply wants us to accept responsibility for the situations we allow ourselves to be in...
    That's like saying we are culpable for everything that happens in the movies.


    ...and the real choice the player has is to not play a military shooter that asks you to drop white phosphorous on people...
    So if I turn off the Titanic DVD mid-way, it doesn't sink?


    Spec Ops: The Line runs on a single-track, meaning all the dumb choices that Walker makes are his alone.

    Edited by bobdebob at 16:28:04 18-04-2013
  • King_Edward 18 Apr 2013 16:35:39 11,454 posts
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    Gonna step in and point out I got confused about which mission DfA was. Thought it was the one where you got a bomb dropped on you. Now the comparison makes more sense.

    Edited by King_Edward at 16:43:50 18-04-2013
  • bobdebob 18 Apr 2013 16:39:37 579 posts
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    King_Edward wrote:
    Gonna step in and point out I got confused about which mission DfA was. Thought it was the one where you got a bomb dropped on you. Now the comparison makes more sense.
    Are the spoilers pointless now?

    Edited by bobdebob at 16:51:15 18-04-2013
  • King_Edward 18 Apr 2013 16:44:01 11,454 posts
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    My bad.
  • bobdebob 18 Apr 2013 16:54:12 579 posts
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    @King_Edward
    It was an actual question, since Oh-Bollocks has pretty much revealed the main plot event for Spec Ops: The line.

    No worries.
  • convercide 28 Apr 2013 14:28:20 5,970 posts
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    Right, I've finished the single player and will never play the multiplayer for this. I'm going to assume there's no-one playing it online.

    However, I have the FUBAR edition (pretty sure all of them are this) for the XBox 360 and will obviously never use the code for it. It allows:

    2x XP for 1 week
    AK47 unlocks at rank 1
    Officer Class Gameplay bonuses (no idea what these are)
    Clan accessory pack

    Here it is for anyone who wants it:

    2WXTQ-6QQ9P-X9TPH-CQ6H4-FKY3Z

    If you can read this, you don't need glasses.

  • RedSparrows 24 Oct 2013 13:48:17 22,214 posts
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    Ven kindly sent me a code for this on PC. Have been caning it a bit. Shooter wise it's competent, not brilliant. The story is the saving grace, but it's not phenomenal. The phosphorous mortar bit was a bit too obvious: the way the civilians were standing was so different to the soldiers. Can you avoid it? I tried to rappel but it wouldn't let me. However, I commend the game for trying to be a bit more ballsy with its themes, even if it does it a little too obviously: far more adult than pure violence and swearing. HoD/AN themes worn a little too much on the sleeve, but even that's better than 95% of games.

    Edited by RedSparrows at 13:51:59 24-10-2013
  • RedSparrows 24 Oct 2013 13:51:31 22,214 posts
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    Mike1989 wrote:
    King_Edward wrote:
    You did have a choice though. You could've stopped playing. Instead you choose to push Walker on even when it became clear he was so horribly misguided.
    Could of stopped playing lol... I really don't think thats how they were trying to make you think.
    Yeah lets make a game where the player becomes so disgusted in his actions he stops playing and trades it in before he even sees the finale!
    If a game makes you want to stop playing then its a bad game. That's just how I see it.

    I liked the game but it defiantly could of been better. If the choices had felt like they were my own maybe it would of tugged on the heartstrings a little.
    But as it is, its a forgettably decent game.
    Why is stopping playing not a choice? Obviously it's one caught in the net of being exactly what game design/publishing is NOT about, but it's still there as a possibility. The mere fact you have an issue with it should tell you something.
  • MrTomFTW Moderator 24 Oct 2013 13:52:25 37,656 posts
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    No you have to do that bit. It's not that part that's the real headfuck really. It goes some very weird places.

    Follow me on Twitter: @MrTom
    Voted by the community "Best mod" 2011, 2012 and 2013.

  • RedSparrows 24 Oct 2013 13:56:08 22,214 posts
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    Aye, am on Chapter 10 or 11 I think. Really just playing for the next bit of exposition, which is hardly praise, but the gameplay ties in for me: the executions are utterly needless and brutal, shooting a medic in the back at the start, the gradual increase in swearing etc. It's hardly subtle and it's very manipulative, and the gameplay isn't fantastic, so I can see why some would dislike it, but I am glad to have got it - even if I'll probably never play it again.
  • JiveHound 24 Oct 2013 14:10:30 2,395 posts
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    I tried this but couldn't gather the enthusiasm to continue.

    I think I did the phospherous bit but it didn't really register through my general apathy.

    Must have been general cover shooter fatigue.

    Live: Jive Hands
    PSN: Jive_Hands

  • RedSparrows 24 Oct 2013 17:59:54 22,214 posts
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    WTF. Walker, what the fuck did you think would happen by helping Riggs destroy the water supply? I'm all for this game making you feel uncomfortable, but I'd be more effective if Walker wasn't such a dumb fuck at points.

    P.S. Jive I'm not sure 'shooter apathy' has anything to do with the WP bit. That just sounds like you're a heartless bastard. YOU HEARTLESS BASTARD.

    Edited by RedSparrows at 18:00:53 24-10-2013
  • RedSparrows 25 Oct 2013 10:27:26 22,214 posts
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    Finished it. I don't think the story worked as well as it could have, but it was still an interesting game. There are some games you don't really care about or dislike, and then there are some you love, and then there are those you didn't love but you are glad they exist, and this is one of them.

    Not as clever or incisive as it wanted, or could, have been, but a very welcome attempt, in my view.

    Edited by RedSparrows at 10:27:48 25-10-2013
  • MrTomFTW Moderator 25 Oct 2013 10:33:42 37,656 posts
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    Which ending did you get?

    Follow me on Twitter: @MrTom
    Voted by the community "Best mod" 2011, 2012 and 2013.

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