Bin Laden's Full Speech

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  • sam_spade 2 Nov 2004 09:25:39 15,745 posts
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    Here

    "But I am amazed at you. Even though we are in the fourth year after the events of September 11th, Bush is still engaged in distortion, deception and hiding from you the real causes. And thus, the reasons are still there for a repeat of what occurred."

  • Khanivor 2 Nov 2004 09:27:50 40,388 posts
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    Well, one thing is confirmed again and again. These guys are right pompous twits with their over-egged, flowery language. You think they reckon they are writing what will become future chapters of the Quaran?
  • pjmaybe 2 Nov 2004 09:29:05 70,676 posts
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    Weird...!

    And oddly a lot more coherent (though just as egotistical) as anything Bush has spouted.

    Peej
  • sam_spade 2 Nov 2004 09:35:49 15,745 posts
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    "It never occurred to us that the commander-in-chief of the American armed forces would abandon 50,000 of his citizens in the twin towers to face those great horrors alone, the time when they most needed him.

    But because it seemed to him that occupying himself by talking to the little girl about the goat and its butting was more important than occupying himself with the planes and their butting of the skyscrapers, we were given three times the period required to execute the operations - all praise is due to Allah."

  • Zeitgeist 2 Nov 2004 09:45:26 811 posts
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    Interesting to read the whole thing like that.
  • Freylis 2 Nov 2004 09:55:24 995 posts
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    Am I wrong to agree with him; maybe not his methods, but his intentions?
  • Khanivor 2 Nov 2004 09:58:19 40,388 posts
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    Freylis wrote:
    Am I wrong to agree with him; maybe not his methods, but his intentions?

    So you want the Arab and Muslim worlds to halt their march towards modernity and return to medieval times? Where a tiny minority of men hold complete and utter control over every single person in the land and women are piece of property? Where religious dogma dictates every single aspect of life? Where modern technology is shunned so children and women die in childbirth and where the average life expectancy is under 40?
  • pjmaybe 2 Nov 2004 10:00:32 70,676 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    Freylis wrote:
    Am I wrong to agree with him; maybe not his methods, but his intentions?

    So you want the Arab and Muslim worlds to halt their march towards modernity and return to medieval times? Where a tiny minority of men hold complete and utter control over every single person in the land and women are piece of property? Where religious dogma dictates every single aspect of life? Where modern technology is shunned so children and women die in childbirth and where the average life expectancy is under 40?

    If the flipside is a starbucks on every street corner, Macdonalds being crammed into kids mouths, obesity, an obsession with guns, having a large army and navy and enough nukes to obliterate the world a million times over, and being controlled by a chimp in a man-suit...I dunno, it ain't much of an alternative is it!

    Peej
  • Blerk Moderator 2 Nov 2004 10:00:44 48,225 posts
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    and where the average life expectancy is under 40?

    Wait... how old's Bin Laden?

    /crosses fingers
  • Khanivor 2 Nov 2004 10:05:31 40,388 posts
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    pjmaybe wrote:
    Khanivor wrote:
    Freylis wrote:
    Am I wrong to agree with him; maybe not his methods, but his intentions?

    So you want the Arab and Muslim worlds to halt their march towards modernity and return to medieval times? Where a tiny minority of men hold complete and utter control over every single person in the land and women are piece of property? Where religious dogma dictates every single aspect of life? Where modern technology is shunned so children and women die in childbirth and where the average life expectancy is under 40?

    If the flipside is a starbucks on every street corner, Macdonalds being crammed into kids mouths, obesity, an obsession with guns, having a large army and navy and enough nukes to obliterate the world a million times over, and being controlled by a chimp in a man-suit...I dunno, it ain't much of an alternative is it!


    Peej

    Sorry peej, but it's one hell of an alternative. Maybe that's why the entire world embraces that culture as soon as they have the opportunity and income to do so. Besides, no one is trying to make a second America with its gun problems and military. Thatís not what this is about. Itís about freedom - as much as that poor word has been utterly debased by Bush & Co. - the freedom to make personal choices without having to worry about the secret police coming along and chopping bits of your body off. America is not trying to impose this on the world, most of the world is trying to impose it upon its own self.


    As distasteful as people may find many aspects of Western culture in comparison to the aspects of the Muslim culture that chaps like Osama want to return to for perpetuity are far, far worse.
  • pjmaybe 2 Nov 2004 10:08:07 70,676 posts
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    I agree with you on the freedom aspect, but whether everyone likes it or not, that's their way of life. Sure they should be given the choice but if the majority of them CHOOSE that "medieval" lifestyle and very odd values, then that should also be their choice too, n'est pa?

    Reading the speech again, it would actually make more sense if the world leaders, or leaders of terrorist organisations would actually shit or get off the pot. All that fannying around. Why can't they just plainly say "Look Bush, we want you out of our country so we can get on with it".

    Peej
  • Khanivor 2 Nov 2004 10:20:02 40,388 posts
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    pjmaybe wrote:
    I agree with you on the freedom aspect, but whether everyone likes it or not, that's their way of life. Sure they should be given the choice but if the majority of them CHOOSE that "medieval" lifestyle and very odd values, then that should also be their choice too, n'est pa?

    Peej

    I agree that if the majority choose that way then that's how it should be. Any country where they do have the choice they choose to live in the modern world. They are not some noble savage type of people who wish to remain close to their primitive heritage, starving, shivering, dying and disease ridden like their - and our - forebears long time ago.

    Humans are all the same under the skin. Sure our cultures may be different but they tend not to override the basic survival and other animal instincts that we all share, nor the same aspiration to have an easier and more enjoyable life. The general Western attitude which supports the fundamentalist Islamist attempts to keep their countries and people ground down is being patronising to those poor oppressed people, assuming that they would prefer to suffer then join the modern world.

    Just look at the number of satellite TV dishes in any Arab country, or the number of high powered cars and McDonalds that they enjoy. There's always going to be those who find certain things distasteful. It's just that anti-globalisation campaigners in the west tend not to blow themselves and innocent people up to try to force their views on others.

    Bushís idiotic mission and the methods used to carry it out have just made it harder to reconcile the wishes of established western culture with the aspirations of those in developing lands to find their own levels of up-take of that culture. A feeling of guilt amongst many westerners about certain directions their culture is taking is used and exploited by the Islamists to show the inherent weakness in our culture when compared to the Arab one where unity of strength is a very important consideration
  • pjmaybe 2 Nov 2004 10:25:06 70,676 posts
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    I agree with what you're saying in principle Khan, it's just that no matter how much most rich arabs would like to be "western" - most poor arabs would rather continue with a way of life that has suited them well for a couple of thousand years.

    And no matter what happens in Iraq or Afghanistan, if the hand of America or any other Coalition country (us too, we've been tarred with the same brush like it or not) is seen in any of the redevelopments or "civilisation makeovers" there will always be fundamentalists who will blow shit up just to make a point that they just plain don't like westerners.

    Interesting bit in Bin Laden's speech about countries he has no beef with...Anyone checked for the dude in Sweden? ;)

    Don't give me the points, Witch - Khan's basic philosophy is right - and I entirely agree with him on the points that no society should treat women like that, no society should live under the constant threat that if they say or do the wrong thing they could end up taken down the cop shop for a sound beating, or worse, end up buried in a shallow grave somewhere...but I'm definitely not in agreement that the Americans are the people to bring about those changes, not by a long way. Hell, even as a citizen of a "yank-friendly" country like ours, I feel sick to my stomach at some of the ways American ideals have been soaked up and spread over Britain like cowshit on a verdant field...

    Peej
  • Decoded 2 Nov 2004 10:27:43 4,426 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    So you want the Arab and Muslim worlds to halt their march towards modernity and return to medieval times?

    Is there no better way to achieve this than by blowing the fuck out of the middle east and slaughtering thousands? What gives any nation the right to wage war simply to impart their way of life on another?
  • RubyRed 2 Nov 2004 10:32:41 4,303 posts
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    Bill Door wrote:
    Perhaps Bush is a humanzee- the offspring of chimp and human? It would explain a lot...
    Like Oliver the Chimp perhaps?

    /has been watching too much Channel 5
  • Khanivor 2 Nov 2004 10:40:36 40,388 posts
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    Do you really think that because they are poor they donít want to be rich? Seriously? Itís the same attitude that said Africans want to remain nomads or the Indonesians would prefer to wear grass skirts as opposed to trackey bottoms. Give those people the chance, and the ability to exercise that chance, usually with money, and the vast majority, especially the young, will drop the grass skirts in a blink of an eye. Apart from a tiny, tiny number of isolated communities this is what has happened around the entire world. People only wear their old costumes to fleece money out of rich western tourists. Come on, itís not like we stopped the Welsh from joining the modern world just because they used to be poor, is it?

    Now, I can understand feeling bad about all those idiosyncratic customs and societies disappearing in the rush to modernity. But we cannot seriously expect groups of people exist like living theme park exhibits to salve our guilt about being at the forefront of the cultural and economic movement which is dragging the rest of the world out of the past.

    Do you really think you would prefer to wear old scratchy clothes, use an outdoor toilet and read the occasional book by paraffin light like our ancestors did a hundred years ago? Would you enjoy their medical coverage, their education, their knowledge of the greater world? Would you fuck, and thereís no reason why any more then a small number of die-hards in any other nation of the world would not want to advance to the level that we so much take for granted.

    And why are all the bad parts of Westernisation attributed to the Americans? Itís not like they bloody invented the ideals that allowed the industrial revolution to take place. I seem to recall almost all the thinkers which laid the groundwork for the world we live in today came from Europe. And it was European countries which started the ball rolling around the entire world, and European countries and companies which continue to do that today.

    Of course there are many unpleasant and downright nasty aspects to the modern world. But they are our collective responsibility, just as global prosperity and security are our collective responsibility.
  • Decoded 2 Nov 2004 10:48:19 4,426 posts
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    I want to know why the western governments feign interest in the welfare of these people. Numerous left-wing politicians spoke in parliament during the 80s about the human rights atrocities of Saddam Hussein and were ignored. Of course at the time both the Tories and Republicans considered Saddam a great friend and couldn't give a shit about what he did within his own boundries (or those of Iran). It's all bullshit because in the brutal, cold, ruthless world of right-wing politics nothing matters but yourself (and making your rich, corporate criminal friends richer).
  • pjmaybe 2 Nov 2004 10:54:37 70,676 posts
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    I don't think it's as simple as that. Sure the poor wanna be richer, who doesn't - but for the most part they have a way of life that they can cope with and not carry the baggage that many poor westerners pretty much have no choice of carrying (squalid conditions, massive debts, hopeless standard of living) - in most poor arab countries they have had the same standard of living for so long that they've adapted to it. Chuck in the sudden massive westernised consumer society and suddenly you've got a nation who feel that they have to have a whole bunch of crap around just to make themselves feel good.

    I don't know what the solution is but I'm damned sure that if the current situation continues for another 2 years, then there almost certainly WILL be another event possibly worse than 11/9 and that doesn't even bear thinking about.

    Peej
  • Shinji 2 Nov 2004 10:55:19 5,903 posts
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    Give those people the chance, and the ability to exercise that chance, usually with money, and the vast majority, especially the young, will drop the grass skirts in a blink of an eye.

    You unspeakably arrogant fuck. "Obviously, given a choice, they'll all choose MY way of life!" Yeah. Just like every parent will choose to save their child's life with modern medicine given a chance... Oh wait, no, there are a significant minority who won't - not an action I approve of, but it's an attitude which exists. Just like travelling communities will always prefer to live in a house when one is offered to them... Again, no, no, they won't.

    I don't like the way of life which many muslims champion, and I'd hate to be subjected to it, but then again I was brought up in a completely different way to them, with a radically different set of beliefs and values. You're talking about people brought up from birth to believe in a number of fundamental things which we simply don't even consider. Saying that given half a chance, they'll drop those beliefs and run to their nearest McDonalds for a quarter pounder with cheese, dropping off at Gap to replace that nasty dash with some nice blue jeans on the way, is exactly the sort of arrogance that has managed to get us into this fucking mess in the middle east in the first place.

    I agree that it would be nice to offer people a choice, but that's an idealistic view which doesn't really work so good in the context of the actual situation on the ground in many Middle Eastern countries. The USA knows that, of course, and wouldn't even be there if it wasn't stabilising its oil supply rather than stabilising the lives of people there.

    And if you want to know why the bad parts of Westernisation are attributed to Americans, it's because they're the ones who are currently out there putting bullets in the heads of the people who fail to sign up to them. It's like nuclear warfare - a European may have invented the splitting of the atom, but it was the Yanks who went off and tested the concept by dropping A-bombs on cities. Who do YOU reckon is to blame?
  • Khanivor 2 Nov 2004 10:56:06 40,388 posts
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    Decoded wrote:
    I want to know why the western governments feign interest in the welfare of these people. Numerous left-wing politicians spoke in parliament during the 80s about the human rights atrocities of Saddam Hussein and were ignored. Of course at the time both the Tories and Republicans considered Saddam a great friend and couldn't give a shit about what he did within his own boundries (or those of Iran). It's all bullshit because in the brutal, cold, ruthless world of right-wing politics nothing matters but yourself (and making your rich, corporate criminal friends richer).

    Why does it have to be about right-wing politics? Can it not just be simple people like you and me wanting to live a better life then there fathers did? Let's also not forget extreme left-wing politics and the high factors involved in calculating the number of deaths under those systems in comparison to more individually minded methods of operation.

    Saying that, constantly politicising everything is almost as damaging as actually dropping bombs. It damages discourse and clouds issues with ideology and egotism. Individuals should be allowed to make choices of about their own destiny. The avaricious goals of corporations and evangelical zealots should hold no more sway over those goals then should apologist hand-wringers and warped religious medievalism.

    Do you want to be told what you can and cannot dream about?


  • pjmaybe 2 Nov 2004 11:03:04 70,676 posts
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    Shinji wrote:
    Give those people the chance, and the ability to exercise that chance, usually with money, and the vast majority, especially the young, will drop the grass skirts in a blink of an eye.

    You unspeakably arrogant fuck. "Obviously, given a choice, they'll all choose MY way of life!" Yeah. Just like every parent will choose to save their child's life with modern medicine given a chance... Oh wait, no, there are a significant minority who won't - not an action I approve of, but it's an attitude which exists. Just like travelling communities will always prefer to live in a house when one is offered to them... Again, no, no, they won't.

    I don't like the way of life which many muslims champion, and I'd hate to be subjected to it, but then again I was brought up in a completely different way to them, with a radically different set of beliefs and values. You're talking about people brought up from birth to believe in a number of fundamental things which we simply don't even consider. Saying that given half a chance, they'll drop those beliefs and run to their nearest McDonalds for a quarter pounder with cheese, dropping off at Gap to replace that nasty dash with some nice blue jeans on the way, is exactly the sort of arrogance that has managed to get us into this fucking mess in the middle east in the first place.

    I agree that it would be nice to offer people a choice, but that's an idealistic view which doesn't really work so good in the context of the actual situation on the ground in many Middle Eastern countries. The USA knows that, of course, and wouldn't even be there if it wasn't stabilising its oil supply rather than stabilising the lives of people there.

    And if you want to know why the bad parts of Westernisation are attributed to Americans, it's because they're the ones who are currently out there putting bullets in the heads of the people who fail to sign up to them. It's like nuclear warfare - a European may have invented the splitting of the atom, but it was the Yanks who went off and tested the concept by dropping A-bombs on cities. Who do YOU reckon is to blame?

    Better said than mine but the same basic argument. I think it's a horrible vision to imagine all of the countries of the world somehow bowing to that gross capitalist all-american "vision" (probably because I listened to too much "The The" as a younger Peejlet) - and though it's a pervasive society that manages to filter down to even some of the tribes in the rainforest in south america, doesn't mean it's bloody right. Not by a long chalk.

    I seriously doubt for one second that the people that are railing against the Coalition occupation in Afghanistan or Iraq would ever bow to the will of Bush or any other leader, not now and not for generations to come. Therefore how could they possibly accept westernisation? It really will never happen. When you see kids being brought up in the same manner as their fathers, their grandfathers and their grandfathers before them - even with the most powerful arguments and persuasions in the world (and waving a few fancy gadgets and some fast food restaurants and Nike High-tops in someone's face isn't the be all and end all) they're not about to give up their beliefs or their ways of life just because some wavy-haired lunatic texan says so.

    Peej
  • Khanivor 2 Nov 2004 11:06:09 40,388 posts
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    How can a post filled with caveats be called Ďarrogantí Shinji? Thereís no way anyone can generalise and speak for every person on the planet. Nor was I saying they should choose my way of living, they should choose what kind of living they want. Itís just that if you care to look past your hand-picked sources of information and peer into the world around you that many, many people want to have a better and more comfortable way of life. For some that means total assimilation into the Western culture, to others it means sticking a satellite dish onto the top of their hut.

    I am not saying that all Muslims want to drop their distash during the rush to grab a Big Mac, but many do. Try visiting an Arab country. You will notice that many Western institutions seem to go down very well. Still, may people resist change. Itís another human quality. Thatís why thereís a Tory party, thatís why we bitch about the rise of certain things in our society, thatís why the Ludites smashed up the looms. But should everyone be held back by the resistors?

    I am not trying to be arrogant and tell people how to live their life. Itís not my choice, it is theirs. The methods being used by Bush & Co. to push a form of government on an unwilling people is totally without thought or merit and you will have to search long and hard to find me giving those tools my support.

    And as to who is to blame. We all fucking are. All of us. The guy who invented it is just as complicit as the guy who dropped it. If other countries were working harder to engage with other nations on levels other then purely economic then surely that would reduce the scope for deluded American administrations to play cowboy with the world?
  • Decoded 2 Nov 2004 11:10:31 4,426 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    Why does it have to be about right-wing politics? Can it not just be simple people like you and me wanting to live a better life then there fathers did? Let's also not forget extreme left-wing politics and the high factors involved in calculating the number of deaths under those systems in comparison to more individually minded methods of operation.

    True, but how could you ever calculate the amount of deaths caused by capitalism? The system that places profit over human lives and that rewards war with lucrative contracts and the prospect of "civilized" Iraqis wearing Nike and eating Big Macs. Doesn't matter about the dead and it never will.
  • Decoded 2 Nov 2004 11:20:26 4,426 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    If other countries were working harder to engage with other nations on levels other then purely economic then surely that would reduce the scope for deluded American administrations to play cowboy with the world?

    That's a good point by the way, and I appriciate your reasonable stance on many points (compared with some Americans I have encountered on teh intarweb), even if I don't agree with most of them :p
  • Khanivor 2 Nov 2004 11:23:35 40,388 posts
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    Good point there Bill. Immigrant cultures in this country show how you can blend the old and the new with great success. Parts of the old way will inevitable die, but so will parts that must die, such as honour killings. Can anyone here honestly say that because they are a part of some cultures that they should not be viewed with absolute abhorrence?


    And even when the old becomes subsumed into the new, does that mean cultural identity is lost? I recall a discussion on the EU were I was rightly pointed out to be incorrect in thinking that greater integration would inevitable lead to a homogenisation of cultures. Try and tell a Welshman that he is less of a Welshman because he subscribes to sky and eats pizza and all the other cultural things which ĎAmericanisationí has forced upon himÖ
  • pjmaybe 2 Nov 2004 11:31:23 70,676 posts
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    You're still fronting this being the acceptable solution - and I'm still sticking to the argument that, no matter how worse off they are being poor and not having McDonalds / Sky TV / Nikes, they'll be happier not to - purely on principle if nothing else.

    Take a look at a few recent examples of what has happened to countries that have given up their socialist ideals and embraced capitalism. Crime goes up, poverty gets worse, the country's national debt increases, available and valuable resources are usually farmed out to other countries to exploit. That's Iraq's future if by some miracle Bush got his way, which he never will.

    I'm not advocating a dictatorial leadership over Iraq either. Lunatics like Saddam and Bin Laden are no better for a country than a lunatic like bush, I just don't agree that they should all be effectively forced into a western way of life as the only viable alternative to their "poverty stricken" and "oddly religious" existence.

    Peej
  • GrandTheftApu 2 Nov 2004 11:36:15 6,119 posts
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    I have to say I agree with Khanivor, the americans are still allowing the iraqis a choice, what Bin Laden advocates fundamentalist islamic law; removes any choice ever again the laws of the qoran are absolute and cannot be questioned. More importantly the qoran will never change so neither will any of these laws or the apparatus that enforces these laws.
  • Shinji 2 Nov 2004 11:38:19 5,903 posts
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    How can a post filled with caveats be called Ďarrogantí Shinji?

    Because you claim to speak for "the vast majority" - whereas clearly you can't. Nor can I, but then again, I don't claim to. Nor do I start insulting your sources of information, which you have ignorantly done without any knowledge whatsoever of where I may get my information.

    Obviously there are people who want to live their lives differently to the accepted norm in their nations and societies. This occurs in every society in the world, and always has done, and always will do.

    You started off claiming that the whole world embraces American culture as soon as they get a chance, and then went on to agree that actually, if the majority choose NOT to then that's how it should be, then informed us all that of course the majority would choose western culture given a chance because it's so damn good. Now you're saying... What?

    I *think* your basic point is that people should have freedom to choose how they live. Which I agree with, but you've clouded the issue massively with this blather about western culture and values - besides which, that's an utterly unrealistic ideal. The USA, that bastion of western culture, isn't at that point yet by a long shot. Europe is much closer, but nowhere near that point either. The middle east is still fighting social battles we were fighting centuries ago, and there's no way in hell that us intervening to wave western ideals in front of them and go "hey, if you drop your religion and culture you get to wear these trainers, eat these burgers and watch this porn!" is going to do anything but inflame the situation right now.

    Besides, your western concept of freedom isn't the only one out there. At what point does one person's freedom start to impinge on another's? In the west, we have one answer to that. In the east, in developed countries like Japan and Singapore, there's a very different one. In the middle east, there's a different answer again. You sound like you've walked around some middle eastern countries and seen the satellite dishes and drawn conclusions, but never stopped to consider that the same possessions don't mean the same cultural values.

    And yes, we've been able to integrate values from elsewhere into our society without losing our identities. That's because European (and American) society is much more of a mixture than most other world cultures are. Our culture is founded on the principle of integration of different cultures into our own... And even at that, witness the genuine fear in the UK of being subsumed into Europe! Now consider the extent of that same fear in much more insular cultures such as Arabic nations. You can't apply the same brush to Iraqis and Welshmen, for gods sake!
  • pjmaybe 2 Nov 2004 11:43:03 70,676 posts
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    I think anyone who advocates any kind of terrorist action like 11/9 or even the beheading of one single westerner is a lunatic, plain and simple. Merely "dangerous" people would thrash around lashing out at anyone and everyone, the mark of a lunatic is the cold and calculated way that these killings have been executed.

    For the record though I'd say Bush is a lunatic too, and much for the same reason - that there is a cold calculated "method" to what he's doing over there that has fuck-all to do with liberation and a hell of a lot to do with seizing assets and making damned sure that people do as they're bloody well told or else.

    Peej
  • Khanivor 2 Nov 2004 11:48:55 40,388 posts
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    Iím really not trying to talk about Iraq here. The Arab world is far larger and more varied then that. I had no doubt that we agreed that ideologues are all a bad idea, Bush is probably worse then Bin Laden and Saddam beats em all. But the main thing is they are all cunts and should never be in a position where they have control over peopleís lives.

    I donít think itís a simple case of Sky vs. hovel. Sky and Big Macs represent the top of the tree. Arabs, for example, are interested in satellite TV not because they can watch the Simpson and Stargate on endless repeat but because it allows them to watch dozens of different channels broadcasting programs made for them. Watch Star TV in the Gulf and you will find a shocking paucity of western programs (well, shocking only if you believe that we are ramming our culture along with our technology down their throats). Murdoch cannot sell people things that they do not want. Well, not enough to make a decent profit.

    When people get the choice whether or not to start embracing aspects of the Western way of life or to shun that completely and remain living exactly as before, invariable the majority of them choose, under entirely their own will, to adapt some of our ways of life. And by adapt I mean take them on but alter and change them to suit their own cultures and sensibilities.

    Thatís what so many people seem confused about. That itís either Nikeís and drug use or camels and tin pans. Like all things in life thereís a lot of variance. People should be free to make up their own mind Ė free from Western leaders who want to impose a way of thinking, Western individuals who want them to remain living in the quaint past or Eastern leaders who want them to go even farther back in time to levels of oppression and brutality that the had naturally been leaving behind.

    And letís not forget that the current type of extreme medievalist Islamicsim is, paradoxically, a relatively modern invention. Just like Christian fundamentalism or radical Zionism.
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