Revolution in the middle east Page 3

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  • Deleted user 28 January 2011 17:09:44
    One thing I'd recommend is watching the Battle of Algiers:

    http://www.criterion.com/films/248-the-battle-of-algiers

    It was requested by the Pentagon to be screened after 9/11 and the Vice President thought waterboarding was a no brainer. Madness.

    @Khan Real politik is based on pragmatism, like with China, what we do in the middle east is borderline moronic. The invasion of Iraq will have unintended consequences, such as redressing the balance between Shia and Sunni and establishing Iran as a counter weight and power broker in the region.

    Iran should actually be an ally of the West, pushing it to extremists rather than working with moderates and trying to slowly mend relations post 9/11 was a terrible turn of events. Taliban and Al Qaeda attack Iranians, drug trafficking is now a huge problem, there was ample opportunity to slowly mend relations.

    For me the whole pattern or foreign policy is that we are creating our own enemies.
  • Tom_Servo 28 Jan 2011 17:15:36 18,076 posts
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    Now they're protesting in Jordan!
  • Carlo 28 Jan 2011 17:18:27 18,162 posts
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    Smuggo wrote:
    mcmonkeyplc wrote:
    This shit has gone way over my head now. I know fuck all about the region.


    Its dry. sandy, has lots of oil, people wear tea towels on their head and everyone has an AK47.
    Well I for one am glad someone took the time to clear that up.

    Do they wear different coloured towels to help us identify which side they are on? I have a colour TV so it would be of great benefit to me.

    This is all just a pre-cursor for the next bond film, isnt it

    PSN ID: Djini

  • spamdangled 28 Jan 2011 17:31:06 27,421 posts
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    Interesting. Protestors have refused to obey curfew, army are refusing to intervene (and getting cheered).

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  • Khanivor 28 Jan 2011 17:34:22 41,055 posts
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    I wonder if this is going to spread to the West Bank. After this week's revelations I'm sure folks there are even less enamoured of their government then they were before.

    Perhaps the reason countries like the US and UK are enacting financial policies which are shrinking the middle class is because they realised what we are seeing in Egypt - rising affluence makes for a people less inclined to accept that status quo. Obviously the problems are very different in those countries than in the protesting ones but I do wonder if it's a factor.
  • disusedgenius 28 Jan 2011 17:41:21 5,509 posts
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    I would have thought that this says more about the spread of the internet and information than it does anything else. Wasn't it a Wikileaks thing which helped spark things off in Tunisia?

    Edit:
    /googles

    Eh, kinda, maybe, ish. Though the overall point remains. :)
  • Khanivor 28 Jan 2011 17:45:46 41,055 posts
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    There's certainly something to be said for the use of technology in orchestrating these protests. It's rather ironic how the use of US military power to keep regimes afloat has been replaced with people empowered by the products of American private enterprise.

    This is an interesting observation about what may have led to the protests. Shame it's written like a first year's essay.
  • disusedgenius 28 Jan 2011 17:51:16 5,509 posts
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    The internet is an American private enterprise now?

    :p
  • Khanivor 28 Jan 2011 18:04:31 41,055 posts
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    I've got a sad feeling this could well go the way of what happened in Iran last year.
  • dutchspeededup 28 Jan 2011 18:10:34 4,577 posts
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    Boab wrote:
    His son played for Celtic.

    It was his dad
  • Deleted user 28 January 2011 18:21:33
    distributed de nile of service
  • dnbuk 28 Jan 2011 19:07:35 4,958 posts
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    Soldiers starting to side with the protesters now (Rumour)
  • Deleted user 28 January 2011 19:43:04
    Khanivor wrote:
    I've got a sad feeling this could well go the way of what happened in Iran last year.

    I hope not. I still think Iranians can overthrow the dictatorship, but only if we stop pushing our double standards over the nuclear issue as it becomes a rallying point against the West.

    The Iranian people are more important than the bomb. We can always negotiate with moderates to do away with any programme in exchange for badly needed international investment and aid.

  • Khanivor 28 Jan 2011 19:53:15 41,055 posts
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    I don't see how the west being against the Iranian regime's quest for a bomb helps the Iranian regime stay in power.
  • RyanDS 28 Jan 2011 19:55:45 9,706 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    I don't see how the west being against the Iranian regime's quest for a bomb helps the Iranian regime stay in power.

    No one likes being told what to do and everyone unites against a foreign oppressor.
  • Tom_Servo 28 Jan 2011 19:58:59 18,076 posts
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    7.56pm GMT: CNN's Ben Wedeman who has been doing an excellent job all day is asked why things have calmed down in Ciaro. "Jim, things have calmed down because there is no government here," saying that police and army had disappeared.

    Is something about to happen?
  • Khanivor 28 Jan 2011 20:01:09 41,055 posts
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    ryandsimmons wrote:
    Khanivor wrote:
    I don't see how the west being against the Iranian regime's quest for a bomb helps the Iranian regime stay in power.

    No one likes being told what to do and everyone unites against a foreign oppressor.

    So you really believe that the Iranians decided to call it a day with the revolution because, as much as they hate their government and how it controls their everyday lives, the prospect of having the international community twist their arm into not building nuclear weapons was far more important to them?

    I think you need to give the Iranian people's intelligence a little more credit.
  • Tom_Servo 28 Jan 2011 20:02:25 18,076 posts
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    A quick Google tells me that 86% of Iranians felt angered by the West's imposition on their country, while only 62% wanted rid of the current government.
  • Khanivor 28 Jan 2011 20:07:54 41,055 posts
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    So?

  • Tom_Servo 28 Jan 2011 20:11:07 18,076 posts
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    I would imagine that that poll points to the West's double standards on nuclear weapons is more important to the most Iranians.
  • Khanivor 28 Jan 2011 20:15:39 41,055 posts
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    I would imagine that poll points that more Iranians don't like the West's nuclear stance then don't like their government while giving no indication as to which issue is more important to them.

    How many deadly protests of hundreds of thousands of people protesting the UN's stance on Iranian nukes do you recall seeing?

    The revolution in Iran petered out because it was brutally and lethally put down by the internal security services, not because the UN put some new sanctions on Iran.
  • Tom_Servo 28 Jan 2011 20:20:51 18,076 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    I would imagine that poll points that more Iranians don't like the West's nuclear stance then don't like their government while giving no indication as to which issue is more important to them.

    How many deadly protests of hundreds of thousands of people protesting the UN's stance on Iranian nukes do you recall seeing?

    The revolution in Iran petered out because it was brutally and lethally put down by the internal security services, not because the UN put some new sanctions on Iran.

    Although it wasn't Iran, there were several deadly riots in Cuba after the EU imposed sanctions in 1988. Not quite the same thing, but it does point to this thing happening before. Riots because of sanctions aren't unheard of.

    A UN report on the Iranian protests found that new US sanctions imposed during the protests had an effect on their quelling as anti-West feeling was stirred up (polls carried out soon after the protests found this to be the case), although I would suggest that it wasn't the main reason. However, it did have an effect.
  • Red-Moose 28 Jan 2011 20:29:15 5,346 posts
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    Smuggo wrote:
    It's pretty interesting what's going on now. Amazing to think all this would be sparked by one man killing himself in despair at local government corruption.

    Even more amazing that you are naiive enough to think so.
  • Khanivor 28 Jan 2011 20:33:45 41,055 posts
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    Which sanctions were those? Not heard of that before.

    Protests against sanctions in countries like Cuba and Iran are not the sort of thing I would view as the spontaneous expression of the sentiments of the people.

    I'm not going to try and deny that sanctions and the stance of the west towards Iran's nuclear ambitions will, for some, have the effect of uniting them behind their government.

    At the end of the day, however, a revolution is an internal matter. If you're fighting and dying for control of your government then the relations the old regime have with the international community are not going to influence your behaviour and goals very much.

    I wonder how many potential student fees protesters decided to stay at home because while they didn't like the fees they were behind the government in its efforts to not extradite Gary McKinnon.

    If we look at Egypt I think the same priorities are in play. No doubt plenty of Egyptians don't like their government's friendliness with Israel and the US and many probably continue to mourn the cancellation of Firefly but factors such as employment, prices and state brutality are going to be what's bringing them out onto the street.
  • BabyJesus 28 Jan 2011 20:59:24 4,412 posts
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    Man, the US are handling this badly. Robert Gibbs seems a terrible press officer.

    Why hasn't Obama called Mubarek(sp?) ? Why isn't he in contact with allies?

    I understand the sensitivity of keeping Egypt onside and away from radicals, but by everything I've read and seen there is little or no extremist involvement.

    By being non-committal and sending a mixed message they risk alienating the egyptian public and inturn inviting extremists to take advantage in any future elections.

    Pathetic handling of the situation.
  • Khanivor 28 Jan 2011 21:09:40 41,055 posts
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    How would you handle it?

    It's a pretty impossible situation to be in. Sorta like if your brother is having marriage problems with his wife. At what point do you take the leap and call her a fucking cunt? Read the situation wrong and you find yourself with one less birthday present to worry about.
  • spamdangled 28 Jan 2011 21:10:49 27,421 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    How would you handle it?

    It's a pretty impossible situation to be in. Sorta like if your brother is having marriage problems with his wife. At what point do you take the leap and call her a fucking cunt? Read the situation wrong and you find yourself with one less birthday present to worry about.

    Have you been smoking?

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  • Khanivor 28 Jan 2011 21:15:36 41,055 posts
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    No, I'm at work.
  • BabyJesus 28 Jan 2011 21:20:07 4,412 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    How would you handle it?

    It's a pretty impossible situation to be in. Sorta like if your brother is having marriage problems with his wife. At what point do you take the leap and call her a fucking cunt? Read the situation wrong and you find yourself with one less birthday present to worry about.
    For one I'd actually pick up the phone and tell Mubarek he has to atleast make some concessions.

    The last thing the west and the US in particular needs to be seen doing in the middle east is propping up a unpopular dictator. We could end up with another Iran.
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