Revolution in the middle east Page 2

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  • Tom_Servo 28 Jan 2011 16:00:19 17,565 posts
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    We don't have anything to do with it, it's all down to the people of Egypt, so I don't see why it's a risk "we take by giving them democracy".
  • oceanmotion 28 Jan 2011 16:00:27 15,840 posts
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    Egypt looked quite appealing in the tourist advert during the Murray match on Eurosport today.

    "Where it all began"
  • coastal 28 Jan 2011 16:01:16 5,382 posts
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    Hmm booked a holiday in Egypt at Easter.

    Actually quiet excited to see Luxor in flames.

    bf3: sergeant_shaftoe

  • Khanivor 28 Jan 2011 16:02:11 40,554 posts
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    Good to see Egyptians trying to take control of their own lives. Let's hope they succeed and let's really hope they go for a secular government. Being the birthplace of modern Islamic fundamentalism a decision which goes the other way could spell disaster for the region. Imagine how Israel will feel if they become surrounded by religiously-motivated haters, (it's such a crying shame to see Lebanon slip back into the morass from which it seemed they had finally managed to extricate themselves form just a few short years ago.

    I'd like to the Libyans get rid of that dirty old nutjob they've had to put up with for 40 years.

    If we are seeing a sped-up version of the revolutions that swept eastern Europe I wonder how this is going to affect history's view of Bush II.
  • RyanDS 28 Jan 2011 16:02:57 9,268 posts
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    Tom_Servo wrote:
    We don't have anything to do with it, it's all down to the people of Egypt, so I don't see why it's a risk "we take by giving them democracy".

    It could destabilise the region. And more importantly jeapordise our cheap beach holidays.
  • mcmonkeyplc 28 Jan 2011 16:03:37 39,442 posts
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    Tom_Servo wrote:
    We don't have anything to do with it, it's all down to the people of Egypt, so I don't see why it's a risk "we take by giving them democracy".

    We have by them taking on democracy then.

    Jeez. I had no idea I was writing an official statement.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • WoodenSpoon 28 Jan 2011 16:04:27 12,285 posts
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    Is there any significant opposition movement in Egypt apart from the Muslim Brotherhood?
  • oceanmotion 28 Jan 2011 16:12:34 15,840 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    If we are seeing a sped-up version of the revolutions that swept eastern Europe I wonder how this is going to affect history's view of Bush II.

    Collapse of communism ?

    What's the connection with Bush II ?

  • Khanivor 28 Jan 2011 16:15:50 40,554 posts
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    That whole invade Iraq and install the first democracy in the region.

    While the first reaction would be to scoff at such a link give it twenty years and I'm sure time will fill in a lot of gaps.

    Even now I don't think you can totally dismiss a connection between these protests and revolutions and the kind of non-autocratic/dictatorship form of government that has been slowly taking shape in Iraq.
  • Deleted user 28 January 2011 16:25:10
    Khan. Khaaan. KHAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN.

    First democracy? America and Britain spent the second half of the 20th century overthrowing democracy in the region ensuring people never achieved full independence.

    Trying to make out that Arab Nationalism = Communism for wanting their own independent foreign policy, some politicians now try to make out that Arab Nationalism = Islamic Fundamentalism.

    Its just a way of the the corrupt staying in power with Western backing. This is the root cause of Islamic Fundamentalism. But as we see on the ground, people in the region are not boogeyman out to get us, the majority of people just want the same things we do.
  • spamdangled 28 Jan 2011 16:26:52 27,276 posts
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    BBC just said that ruler of Egypt was once quoted as saying (about democracy) "I don't understand why this is necessary. It's like being told to seek approval to live in my own house".

    Fucking hell these idiots need bringing down.

    3DS: 4055-2781-2855 Xbox: spamdangled PSN: dark_morgan Wii U: Spamdangle Steam: spamdangled

  • spamdangled 28 Jan 2011 16:29:11 27,276 posts
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    Smuggo wrote:
    It's pretty interesting what's going on now. Amazing to think all this would be sparked by one man killing himself in despair at local government corruption.

    Yeah. Its sort of like a middle-east tianmen square thing (except successful).

    3DS: 4055-2781-2855 Xbox: spamdangled PSN: dark_morgan Wii U: Spamdangle Steam: spamdangled

  • mcmonkeyplc 28 Jan 2011 16:29:12 39,442 posts
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    Fight the power darkmorgado!

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • MetalDog 28 Jan 2011 16:29:54 23,697 posts
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    What Vertical Stand said.

    Seriously Khani, you can love a country and a culture without being a blanket apologist for it.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • Khanivor 28 Jan 2011 16:30:36 40,554 posts
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    I guess I'm ignorant. What democracies were there in the Middle East and Northern Africa in the early 20th century?

    I don't think anyone has even suggested the people in the region are boogeymen to be kept down.

    You do know that when modern Islamic fundamentalism was being born that Egypt was a satellite state of the USSR?
  • spamdangled 28 Jan 2011 16:32:24 27,276 posts
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    They had a BBC journalist on a few minutes ago, literally soaked in his own blood. Apparently plainclothed policemen are beating civilians with steel rods, and actively going after journalists.

    3DS: 4055-2781-2855 Xbox: spamdangled PSN: dark_morgan Wii U: Spamdangle Steam: spamdangled

  • nickthegun 28 Jan 2011 16:34:12 59,525 posts
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    mcmonkeyplc wrote:
    Tom_Servo wrote:
    We don't have anything to do with it, it's all down to the people of Egypt, so I don't see why it's a risk "we take by giving them democracy".

    We have by them taking on democracy then.

    Jeez. I had no idea I was writing an official statement.


    Protip: Thinking before you type yields wondrous results. Write it on your hand for the next time you approach your keyboard.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
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  • Khanivor 28 Jan 2011 16:38:17 40,554 posts
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    MetalDog wrote:
    What Vertical Stand said.

    Seriously Khani, you can love a country and a culture without being a blanket apologist for it.

    You know, that statement has absolutely zero bearing on what I posted.

  • RyanDS 28 Jan 2011 16:39:39 9,268 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    MetalDog wrote:
    What Vertical Stand said.

    Seriously Khani, you can love a the republicans and their politics without being a blanket apologist for the party.

    You know, that statement has absolutely zero bearing on what I posted.


    Better?

    Edit: Did you seriously say above that the emerging situation in Iraq was a good thing? Do you actually know what is going on there?
  • Tom_Servo 28 Jan 2011 16:40:06 17,565 posts
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    Can we not do this now? I'm paying attention to the situation and would like this thread not to be fucked up by a quotefest from the usual suspects.
  • mcmonkeyplc 28 Jan 2011 16:43:17 39,442 posts
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    Also we have no idea how this is going to pan out yet. Hold on to your preverbial horses.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • figgis 28 Jan 2011 16:54:24 7,376 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    I guess I'm ignorant. What democracies were there in the Middle East and Northern Africa in the early 20th century?

    Iran (Overthrown by the US in 1953)
  • Khanivor 28 Jan 2011 16:54:30 40,554 posts
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    Sorry Tom.

    No ryand, that's even further from the truth.

    I knew that even mentioning Bush would have people leaping the boilerplate conclusion.
  • Deleted user 28 January 2011 16:56:30
    Khanivor wrote:
    MetalDog wrote:
    What Vertical Stand said.

    Seriously Khani, you can love a country and a culture without being a blanket apologist for it.

    You know, that statement has absolutely zero bearing on what I posted.

    You're trying to make out that its possible the Bush Administration is somehow going to be appreciated in the future as inspiring democracy in the region. Cue Shatner. Khaaaan.

    Khanivor wrote:
    I guess I'm ignorant. What democracies were there in the Middle East and Northern Africa in the early 20th century?

    Second half of the 20th century, post World War II. The path for post-colonial independence, the path for politics to develop in the region like Iran in the early 50s has been repeatedly obstructed rather than assisted by Western intervention.

    I don't think anyone has even suggested the people in the region are boogeymen to be kept down.

    I wasn't suggesting people here do but that there appears to be a common link in the way that supporting dictatorships are defended as being real politik in both the Cold War and post 9/11.

    You do know that when modern Islamic fundamentalism was being born that Egypt was a satellite state of the USSR?

    Suez. Arab Nationalism made out to be Communism and an existential threat to the interests of the West.

    US locks itself into Western European imperial policy in the region (Britain and France), pushed nationalists to the USSR to exploit as part of Cold War. Western policy helps create the conditions for conflict. Perhaps people reject Western politics and values because from their perspective they are associated with systemic corruption and injustice?
  • mcmonkeyplc 28 Jan 2011 17:01:07 39,442 posts
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    This shit has gone way over my head now. I know fuck all about the region.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • Khanivor 28 Jan 2011 17:01:39 40,554 posts
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    figgis wrote:
    Khanivor wrote:
    I guess I'm ignorant. What democracies were there in the Middle East and Northern Africa in the early 20th century?

    Iran (Overthrown by the US in 1953)

    I was meaning a democracy where everyone gets to vote and the vote is free and fair and where there's no dynasty. The guy who the British had overthrown wasn't exactly a staunch supporter of playing by the rules of democracy.
  • spamdangled 28 Jan 2011 17:02:18 27,276 posts
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    Headquarters of the government party are on fire!

    3DS: 4055-2781-2855 Xbox: spamdangled PSN: dark_morgan Wii U: Spamdangle Steam: spamdangled

  • Khanivor 28 Jan 2011 17:08:56 40,554 posts
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    @VT - I'm posting the opinion that perhaps history will paint Bush in a different light then he is under currently. History has a long, distinguished tradition of evolving into a narrative which is very different from what actually occurred at the time.

    I'm also of the opinion that you cannot simply dismiss the democracy installed in Iraq as having any positive influence whatsoever on the expectations and aspirations of other people in the geographic region as to how they would prefer to be governed.

    I'm in no way trying to give Bush sole credit for the changes currently. I'm actually not a moron.

    Supporting dictatorships and other less-than ideal regimes is real politik. It's how nations and their forebears have conducted affairs since one tribe met another tribe. It leaves a real nasty taste in my mouth that we do business with people such a Mubarak but I can see some pretty solid logical reasons for doing so. If we do see revolution in Egypt we can all hope that they decided to go for a modern, non-theocratic system of government. It would be better for all involved and would leave us having to rely on one less odious regime in the area.
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