Revolution in the middle east Page 62

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  • LeoliansBro 19 Nov 2012 10:44:08 43,229 posts
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    Didn't you want to glass the whole area a few pages back?

    Edit: that would be for Mola Ram.

    Edited by LeoliansBro at 10:44:24 19-11-2012

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • kalel 19 Nov 2012 10:44:28 86,392 posts
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    I'm generally uncomfortable with the term "Zionism". It's a word that is so far removed now from its original meaning, and so hugely stretched in its current meaning, I feel it's really best not used at all. There are better words to describe whatever people mean by it, ranging from "Pro-Israeli" to "new world order lizard Jews".

    As for how this problem gets solved, the only way is to address both parties at the same time. It's a Catch 22 otherwise. Palestine is being besieged and oppressed, and feels it only has a voice through militant (terrorist) action. Meanwhile Israel has its civilians constantly targeted by terrorist activity and so is hugely aggressively protectionist. The two sides perpetuate each other, so you can't just try and stop one. You have to stop both simultaneously.
  • Madder-Max 19 Nov 2012 10:47:17 11,622 posts
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    I edited my post with a hint of seriousness

    99 problems and being ginger is one

  • Mola_Ram 19 Nov 2012 10:49:18 6,981 posts
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    @LB

    lol, touche

    His sounded like a serious question, though. And the serious answer to it would be a) it's wrong; and b) there's no such thing as a precision nuclear strike. This is a tiny area we're talking about. Any nuclear weapon use would affect everyone.

    Probably applies to the fuss over Iran too.

    EDIT: And it wasn't serious. Phew. Good that we're on the same page here. :p

    Edited by Mola_Ram at 10:51:03 19-11-2012
  • Deleted user 19 November 2012 11:03:34
    localnotail wrote:
    Just checked the Iron Dome Wikipedia entry and it says $40K per missile. Sure they said £72K on Radio 4 but may have been mistaken. Still a lot. And it's $50M / battery, which they might well need more of. And so the enormous amount of aid money returns to the US. Interesting reading.
    It's made by an Israeli company.
  • fletch7100 19 Nov 2012 11:16:11 6,981 posts
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    Lets see what R Murdoch has to say about this

    “Why Is Jewish owned press so consistently anti- Israel in every crisis?”


    "Can't Obama stop his friends in Egypt shelling Israel"
  • Mola_Ram 19 Nov 2012 11:22:47 6,981 posts
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    I thought he might be responding to the guy who got fired from CNN for saying that Jews controlled the media. In a sort of "well, if they *do* control the media, then why are they anti-Israel?"

    Which would be wrong in any case, but yeah. It's full of wrongness either way.
  • kalel 19 Nov 2012 11:27:01 86,392 posts
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    The media are kind of damned either way really. I have an Israeli cousin who spends his life moaning on FB about how disgustingly anti-Israel and anti-Semitic the BBC are, which I find odd as they sit somewhere in the middle to me, but if anything they've been pro-Israeli in the past.

    Again, both sides are being dicks, and both sides have arguably good reason for being dicks, so it's a never-ending series of Catch 22s and chicken/eggs. You can't take any kind of view on it without a reasonable counter-view being thrown in your face (as shown in this thread).

    Again, the situation is well beyond assigning blame or fault or reason or cause. It is what it is. The question is simply what can be done to sort it from this point.
  • senso-ji 19 Nov 2012 11:32:03 5,795 posts
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    Usually when this conflict arises both Israelis and Palestinians accuse the media of being biased against them. Which IMO means the media must be trying their hardest to be as balanced as they possibly can (which is hard enough considering how dangerous it is trying to obtain information).

    Compared to the Iraq invasion in 2003, the media handle the Israel-Gaza conflict in a much more balanced way.
  • fletch7100 19 Nov 2012 11:35:31 6,981 posts
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    US aid to Israel since WW2 $115 billion.

    Us foreign aid to the Palestintians
    http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22967.pdf

    Under the Foreign Military Financing program Isarel currently receives $3 billion a year in training and equipment.
    http://www.state.gov/t/pm/rls/rm/176684.htm
  • bitch_tits_zero_nine 19 Nov 2012 11:35:34 6,654 posts
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    Isn't the difference between the two sides that Israeli military action is state sponsored and rationalised by America as reasonable, compared with flat out terrorism.

    It seems ironic to me that a people with such a history of being persecuted can readily become the oppressors; but then I guess it could make you want to be able to fight back, dunno.
  • RedSparrows 19 Nov 2012 11:38:33 22,061 posts
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    Melanie Phillips was raving on the other day about how the evil Muzzies must love Obama being re-elected, because he hates Israel, or some such twunt.
  • Moot_Point 19 Nov 2012 11:39:09 3,917 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Palestine is being besieged and oppressed, and feels it only has a voice through militant (terrorist) action.
    Yeah. Because the people defending their homes are all terrorists really.

    ================================================================================

    mowgli wrote: I thought the 1 married the .2 and founded Islam?

  • kalel 19 Nov 2012 11:39:23 86,392 posts
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    bitch_tits_zero_nine wrote:
    Isn't the difference between the two sides that Israeli military action is state sponsored and rationalised by America as reasonable, compared with flat out terrorism.
    I don't think anyone is saying the two sides are the same, just that the actions of both sides can be rationalised.

    It seems ironic to me that a people with such a history of being persecuted can readily become the oppressors; but then I guess it could make you want to be able to fight back, dunno.
    I don't think even your most militant Israeli sees it in these terms. They are still being protectionist. It's defence through aggression. They don't see themselves as persecutors or oppressors. They still harbour a victim complex and believe the only way they can be safe and secure in their future is to do what they are doing.
  • bitch_tits_zero_nine 19 Nov 2012 11:40:26 6,654 posts
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    ah
  • LeoliansBro 19 Nov 2012 11:41:00 43,229 posts
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    Moot_Point wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    Palestine is being besieged and oppressed, and feels it only has a voice through militant (terrorist) action.
    Yeah. Because the people defending their homes are all terrorists really.
    It's the method as much as the intent that makes them terrorists.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • kalel 19 Nov 2012 11:42:29 86,392 posts
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    Moot_Point wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    Palestine is being besieged and oppressed, and feels it only has a voice through militant (terrorist) action.
    Yeah. Because the people defending their homes are all terrorists really.
    I don't see how repeatedly firing missiles with the intent of killing civilians (and only civilians) is anything other than terrorism.

    As I've said, it is absolutely understandable as their only course of action to highlight their cause, but you can't reasonably describe that as "defending their homes". It isn't.

    Again, there's really no value in trying to score points in the "who's the biggest dick" discussion. Everyone needs to get beyond that one.
  • kalel 19 Nov 2012 11:47:26 86,392 posts
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    Nice blog post from the mother of an Israeli soldier living in Jerusalem.

    (Ignore the antagonistic "Would would Obama do?" banner, the post itself presents a good view of how your average moderate Israeli feels about it all.
  • senso-ji 19 Nov 2012 11:49:52 5,795 posts
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    I don't have a problem with Israel's military strategy as such - they get targeted by rockets, and they bomb where those rockets are fired from. Seems fair to me.

    What I (and many others) have issues with is the way the Israeli government treats the Palestinians (Gaza and West Bank) outside of headline grabbing conflicts like these. They come across as running something close to an apartheid regime where all Palestinians are punished collectively.

    Edited by senso-ji at 11:50:46 19-11-2012
  • Moot_Point 19 Nov 2012 11:55:20 3,917 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Moot_Point wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    Palestine is being besieged and oppressed, and feels it only has a voice through militant (terrorist) action.
    Yeah. Because the people defending their homes are all terrorists really.
    I don't see how repeatedly firing missiles with the intent of killing civilians (and only civilians) is anything other than terrorism.

    As I've said, it is absolutely understandable as their only course of action to highlight their cause, but you can't reasonably describe that as "defending their homes". It isn't.

    Again, there's really no value in trying to score points in the "who's the biggest dick" discussion. Everyone needs to get beyond that one.
    I think you are confusing the issues. It is one thing HAMAS firing rockets into Israel in retribution of the assassinations of their 'key' figures in the organisation, and that of the civilian population defending their homes against the bulldozers and Israeli forces with stones.

    ================================================================================

    mowgli wrote: I thought the 1 married the .2 and founded Islam?

  • SClaw 19 Nov 2012 11:57:15 826 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Nice blog post from the mother of an Israeli soldier living in Jerusalem.

    (Ignore the antagonistic "Would would Obama do?" banner, the post itself presents a good view of how your average moderate Israeli feels about it all.
    She can't be moderate when she specifically runs an anti-war blog.

    It was an interesting piece showing another point of view from inside Israel, but hardly balanced or particularly newsworthy. Reading other posts it's clear she's anti-military (having a son in the military is no bar to that - Israel still has manditory conscription) and anti-Nety.

    All points I agree with, but it makes her an unreliable source of opinion.
  • kalel 19 Nov 2012 11:57:41 86,392 posts
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    senso-ji wrote:
    I don't have a problem with Israel's military strategy as such - they get targeted by rockets, and they bomb where those rockets are fired from. Seems fair to me.

    What I (and many others) have issues with is the way the Israeli government treats the Palestinians (Gaza and West Bank) outside of headline grabbing conflicts like these. They come across as running something close to an apartheid regime where all Palestinians are punished collectively.
    I have issue with that too. It absolutely has to be addressed and stopped.

    Yes, Israel started it with the way the original settling was done - bad bad bad. Israel were cunts. End of.

    And they continue to build settlements and expand, which is perhaps even worse and absolutely has to stop. More cuntishness. End of.

    And yes, this is why the fire rockets at civilians. I get it. What else can they do?

    However, because of the rockets, Israel become even more convinced that everyone wants them wiped off the map, and their solution is more aggression and more expansion. And yes, that's not ok. That's an attitude that has to change. American and the rest of us must put pressure on Israel to stop being this way. We have to stop supporting this behaviour.

    But yeah, not firing rockets at civilians would also be a help too.
  • SClaw 19 Nov 2012 11:58:28 826 posts
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    senso-ji wrote:
    I don't have a problem with Israel's military strategy as such - they get targeted by rockets, and they bomb where those rockets are fired from. Seems fair to me.

    What I (and many others) have issues with is the way the Israeli government treats the Palestinians (Gaza and West Bank) outside of headline grabbing conflicts like these. They come across as running something close to an apartheid regime where all Palestinians are punished collectively.
    And why did they bomb Abbas' office? No rocket was fired from there. It was just petty revenge for Egypt's visit.
  • kalel 19 Nov 2012 11:58:39 86,392 posts
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    Moot_Point wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    Moot_Point wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    Palestine is being besieged and oppressed, and feels it only has a voice through militant (terrorist) action.
    Yeah. Because the people defending their homes are all terrorists really.
    I don't see how repeatedly firing missiles with the intent of killing civilians (and only civilians) is anything other than terrorism.

    As I've said, it is absolutely understandable as their only course of action to highlight their cause, but you can't reasonably describe that as "defending their homes". It isn't.

    Again, there's really no value in trying to score points in the "who's the biggest dick" discussion. Everyone needs to get beyond that one.
    I think you are confusing the issues. It is one thing HAMAS firing rockets into Israel in retribution of the assassinations of their 'key' figures in the organisation, and that of the civilian population defending their homes against the bulldozers and Israeli forces with stones.
    You're the one confusing the issue. I was talking about the rockets and you're the one that told me they were just defending their homes.
  • senso-ji 19 Nov 2012 12:03:58 5,795 posts
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    SClaw wrote:
    senso-ji wrote:
    I don't have a problem with Israel's military strategy as such - they get targeted by rockets, and they bomb where those rockets are fired from. Seems fair to me.

    What I (and many others) have issues with is the way the Israeli government treats the Palestinians (Gaza and West Bank) outside of headline grabbing conflicts like these. They come across as running something close to an apartheid regime where all Palestinians are punished collectively.
    And why did they bomb Abbas' office? No rocket was fired from there. It was just petty revenge for Egypt's visit.
    That's the point I'm trying to make - they collectively punish all Palestinians for the actions of a few. It's wrong.
  • kalel 19 Nov 2012 12:05:23 86,392 posts
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    SClaw wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    Nice blog post from the mother of an Israeli soldier living in Jerusalem.

    (Ignore the antagonistic "Would would Obama do?" banner, the post itself presents a good view of how your average moderate Israeli feels about it all.
    She can't be moderate when she specifically runs an anti-war blog.

    It was an interesting piece showing another point of view from inside Israel, but hardly balanced or particularly newsworthy. Reading other posts it's clear she's anti-military (having a son in the military is no bar to that - Israel still has manditory conscription) and anti-Nety.

    All points I agree with, but it makes her an unreliable source of opinion.
    Perhaps "moderate" is a word that now has its own political connotations. I just meant in the literal sense of being reasonable/not extreme.

    There's nothing that makes her an "unreliable source of opinion" though. That's nonsense.

    It demonstrates that there are people within Israel who can also see the situation for what it is, and aren't all bloodthirsty expansionists as I believe some are starting to see all Israelis as.
  • RelaxedMikki 19 Nov 2012 12:08:06 927 posts
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    I was in Israel for a Kasakhstani wedding earlier in the year.
    The thing that struck me was how humanity has been fighting over the region for millenia. Persians, Greeks, Romans, Ottomans, French, British etc. Each empire has spent time trying to dominate that patch of fertile ground between the east coast of the Med and the Red Sea...
  • mcmonkeyplc 19 Nov 2012 12:15:33 39,387 posts
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    It's fucking retarded. Fighting over a piece of land for that long.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • rudedudejude 19 Nov 2012 12:23:03 2,154 posts
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    Have XCOM shown up yet?
  • senso-ji 19 Nov 2012 12:23:22 5,795 posts
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    It's not retarded, it's human instinct.
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