Revolution in the middle east Page 56

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  • Psychotext 15 Nov 2012 21:22:36 53,982 posts
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    MrTomFTW wrote:
    Just an absolute :( :( :( :( from me.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/11/15/jihad-misharawi-bbc-arabic-baby-omar-killed-gaza-strike_n_2135095.html
    :(

    Edited by Psychotext at 21:22:56 15-11-2012
  • Bremenacht 15 Nov 2012 22:05:23 17,843 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Another thing is that if we're going to mention America and the West's dubious role in supporting Israel, I think it's only fair also to mention the likes of Iran and Syria's role in the likes of Hezbollah and Hamas
    I'm glad someone brought that up, because the reality is that this is a proxy war between Israel and Iran/Syria. You could argue it's a proxy war between Iran and the US too, but it's much less of that, and the US has so much less to lose.

    Someone(s) mentioned nukes. If you can accept it's a proxy war between Israel and Iran, then you're probably looking at a proxy war between two nuclear-armed states, or you soon will be.

    So as much as stuff like this is painful to see and read..
    MrTomFTW wrote:
    Just an absolute :( :( :( :( from me.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/11/15/jihad-misharawi-bbc-arabic-baby-omar-killed-gaza-strike_n_2135095.html
    .. the human tragedy could ramp up immensely, and quickly.

    Does Israel have much choice but to respond strongly to attacks? I don't think it does. Weakness or passivity won't gain them respect or peace - just more attacks. For Israel, this conflict (political more than martial) may have much to do with land, but for it's opponents it's more to do with a fucked-up racial ideology. I'd like to imagine a 'hearts and minds' policy towards Palistinians would help the Israelis, but it won't work while Iranian and -maybe, still- Syrian leaders want them wiped out and will provide enormous funding to make it happen.

    So, pessimistically, I think things will either carry on as they are for a long time, or be resolved following a new holocaust, both for Israelis and then for any country Israel suspects of supporting it - Iran, Saud, lord knows who else.
  • Mola_Ram 15 Nov 2012 22:16:54 7,250 posts
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    So, Israel's opponents are just massive racists? Well, good we've got that sorted out. I thought it was an immesnely complicated situation, but if one side is just plum racist then obviously they're the bad ones!

    And hey, let's just have everyone kill each other for a few decades more, because there's no clearly better option than more violence! I'm sure they'll just get bored of it eventually.
  • AaronTurner 15 Nov 2012 22:23:28 7,684 posts
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    One Side is severely oppressed.
  • Bremenacht 15 Nov 2012 22:25:56 17,843 posts
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    One side?

    Shit. There's me thinking there's a number of thumbs in this particular pie. Silly me.
  • AaronTurner 15 Nov 2012 22:34:23 7,684 posts
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    No, you're right, its Israel who are oppressed.
  • Psychotext 15 Nov 2012 22:38:06 53,982 posts
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    The Israeli Iron Dome is an impressive bit of tech. 12 missile intercepts in this vid (it all kicks off about 50 seconds in). I wonder how many lives it has saved.

  • localnotail 15 Nov 2012 22:46:37 23,093 posts
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    A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

  • Bremenacht 15 Nov 2012 22:48:12 17,843 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    No, you're right, its Israel who are oppressed.
    Ok. Let me clarify my response.

    Mola_Ram wrote:
    So, Israel's opponents are just massive racists? Well, good we've got that sorted out. I thought it was an immesnely complicated situation, but if one side is just plum racist then obviously they're the bad ones!
    That's right - that's exactly what I meant, you sarcastic tit.

    Mola_Ram wrote:
    And hey, let's just have everyone kill each other for a few decades more, because there's no clearly better option than more violence! I'm sure they'll just get bored of it eventually.
    That's right - that's exactly what I meant, you sarcastic tit.

    AaronTurner wrote:
    One Side is severely oppressed.
    I agree, but it's not just the Israelis who are doing it. Iran and Syria and all the other states who fund the paramilitaries have responsibility for that oppression too.
  • Psychotext 15 Nov 2012 22:51:06 53,982 posts
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    @lnt: I imagine that's exactly the interface. :D
  • AaronTurner 15 Nov 2012 22:53:37 7,684 posts
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    I don't agree with that at all. There are clearly problems but oppressing millions of people is disgusting regardless of circumstance. Considering the history of Jewish people I find it all utterly incomprehensible and reprehensible.
  • localnotail 15 Nov 2012 22:58:39 23,093 posts
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    @psycho-T Every time I hear it mentioned, that image flashes in my head.

    Has there been any coverage of the fact that today is Independence Day in Palestine? I've got a friend who teaches there. He's shelved the plans to show his students how to make bottle rockets.

    Edited by localnotail at 23:00:15 15-11-2012

    A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

  • Bremenacht 15 Nov 2012 23:18:13 17,843 posts
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    AaronTurner wrote:
    ..oppressing millions of people is disgusting regardless of circumstance. Considering the history of Jewish people I find it all utterly incomprehensible and reprehensible.
    I'm really not disagreeing with you on those points.

    Let me ask you this: If Israel became entirely passive, cedeing control of Gaza and it's borders to Hamas, what do you think would happen?
  • NBZ 15 Nov 2012 23:25:20 2,371 posts
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    Let me ask you this: If Israel became entirely passive, cedeing control of Gaza and it's borders to Hamas, what do you think would happen?
    Apparently the guy Israel assassinated the other day had only hours earlier passed to Israeli negotiators a draft of an agreement for "lasting peace".

    A few hours later he got deaded by the powers that be.

    because the reality is that this is a proxy war between Israel and Iran/Syria
    Hamas has lost ground with both Syria (where it explicitly disengaged with the regime to support the people) and Iran (because of what it did in relation to Syria).

    It is easy to trot out these lazy ideas, but the truth is that it is the people on the ground who are suffering and they are not proxies for others.

    Before teh Siege on Gaza, the Israeli military calculated the minimum level of food required to avoid malnutrition in Gaza (according to court documents allegedly to avoid malnutrition...) and then allowed a lot less than that amount it.

    That doesnt make the Gazans proxies of anyone, just starving people that want some food and the right to not be blown up while going about their daily business.
  • Psychotext 15 Nov 2012 23:41:09 53,982 posts
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    NBZ wrote:
    Apparently the guy Israel assassinated the other day had only hours earlier passed to Israeli negotiators a draft of an agreement for "lasting peace".
    The head of Hamas's military arm was passing peace agreements to Israeli negotiators? This seems exceedingly unlikely.
  • Bremenacht 15 Nov 2012 23:49:27 17,843 posts
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    If Hamas has lost any ground with Syria and Iran, it's because other states and organisations are providing more funding and have earned a greater say. The aim remains the same: obliterate Israel, kill Jews.

    No Hamas leader would agree to a 'lasting peace' with Israel and actually mean it. If they had, they wouldn't remain a leader for long.

    Edited by Bremenacht at 23:49:50 15-11-2012
  • Bremenacht 15 Nov 2012 23:50:37 17,843 posts
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    Post deleted
  • NBZ 15 Nov 2012 23:51:35 2,371 posts
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    Psychotext wrote:
    NBZ wrote:
    Apparently the guy Israel assassinated the other day had only hours earlier passed to Israeli negotiators a draft of an agreement for "lasting peace".
    The head of Hamas's military arm was passing peace agreements to Israeli negotiators? This seems exceedingly unlikely.
    Who better to negotiate than the one with the power to act?
  • Psychotext 16 Nov 2012 00:01:30 53,982 posts
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    It's not a case of being the best to negotiate, it's a case of wanting to. He's been the one ordering the constant rocket attacks over the last few months. Unless his lasting peace involved Israelis walking into the sea on mass.

    It's far too convenient (in propaganda terms), especially since the last attempt at an agreement came ten years ago and in far more peaceful circumstances.
  • richardiox 16 Nov 2012 00:16:19 5,583 posts
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    Sounds like Israel is readying for another ground invasion.

    "Hamas target our children, we always avoid civilian casualties".

    /Bulldozes 100s of homes
    /Blockades humanitarian supplies

    Also, when you (they) pretty much consider the whole of Gaza to be full of Hamas supporters (terrorists) doesn't that make the whole population & the infrastructure a legit target in their eyes? Even down to the kids throwing stones.

    30 years of violent oppression, settlements bulldozed to the ground since the early 80s, mean that there's a prevalent anti Israel ideology throughout Palestine. If a 17 year old Palestinian holds these beliefs but has never held a weapon or been near a rocket are they still an enemy of Israel, a terrorist.

    I honestly think Israel definition of terrorist covers the whole of the Palestinian populace. Why else would they systematically bulldoze residential homes over a 30+ year period and enforce (non military) sanctions.

    As stated by others, the irony of the Israeli states oppression isn't lost on me.

    Hamas aren't without blame but it's like the whole school bully thing...the bigger guy picks on you for years - physically and psychologically. When you inevitably snap and give him a dead arm he stamps on your head 28 times then breaks your spine with a crowbar. It's such an uneven conflict.

    You could liken the actual casualty rates of rocket attacks from Gaza to IRA bombings during the 80s. Was the English governments response to bulldoze homes and send over apache gunships on the logic that all republicans are guilty by association? It's barbaric.

    And to go down the "who cast the first stone" route I only need to point to the year 1948. And all the subsequent Israeli land grabs.

    Fuck it all what a horrible mess with no way out. Just feel sorry for people in Gaza, especially if Ground forces do go in for their bi-decade show of strength/bulldozer run.

    Edited by richardiox at 00:21:20 16-11-2012
  • NBZ 16 Nov 2012 00:31:58 2,371 posts
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    Psychotext wrote:
    It's not a case of being the best to negotiate, it's a case of wanting to. He's been the one ordering the constant rocket attacks over the last few months. Unless his lasting peace involved Israelis walking into the sea on mass.

    It's far too convenient (in propaganda terms), especially since the last attempt at an agreement came ten years ago and in far more peaceful circumstances.
    It's not the first time and it is once again election time in Israel.

    There were also attempts at negotiation prior to the last assault on gaza.

    Both times the palestinians found unwilling ears on the Israeli side where political motivations were the primary motive for the assault.
  • Bremenacht 16 Nov 2012 00:41:07 17,843 posts
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    The Israelis will be mad to launch another assault, given what happened last time.
  • NBZ 16 Nov 2012 01:44:36 2,371 posts
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    What happened last time? The Palestinians were found to be no match and unable to defend themselves?
  • AaronTurner 16 Nov 2012 06:52:49 7,684 posts
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    If I were a Palestinian there is no doubt in my mind I'd be throwing anything in my grasp at the Israelis. What else is there for them? Brutally oppressed and treated like animals, there is no other system for them other than a fight.
  • Moot_Point 16 Nov 2012 07:08:29 3,983 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Moot_Point wrote:
    @SClaw Ideology will always be fought over.

    "My thoughts are better than yours. So ner!" /atomic bomb
    Ideology has little to do with it, if anything.

    It's about land, plain and simple. Always has been.
    If you say so. The extreme arm of Jews (Zionists) put pressure on the allied countries to allow then a country of their own. So Israel has only been around since the end of WW2.

    This is why we see non-Zionist Jews making their voices heard in demonstrations against the Zionists in the US. I am just thankful that the republicans are not in power, or we would have seen an escalation of aggression from america toward the Muslim states.

    Edited by Moot_Point at 07:34:23 16-11-2012

    ================================================================================

    mowgli wrote: I thought the 1 married the .2 and founded Islam?

  • mcmonkeyplc 16 Nov 2012 07:31:19 39,440 posts
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    Nuke it all from orbit. The whole region.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • Mola_Ram 16 Nov 2012 07:42:28 7,250 posts
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    Or threaten to do it, ie. if you guys don't get your shit together, you're going to be fighting over the world's biggest piece of glass.

    Call it the Watchmen solution.
  • Ginger 16 Nov 2012 08:22:47 6,830 posts
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    Anybody hear Radio 4 just now? Chief Rabbi was on thought for the day and afterwards he was asked by Evan Davis "Do you have any thoughts about what's going on in Israel at the minute". I can only assume the Rabbi thought he was off air as he sighed and said "I think it's all about Iran".

    They then reminded him he was on air and he did the "violence is rubbish, sort it out peacefully" bit I think they were expecting.

    Edited by Ginger at 08:22:54 16-11-2012

    London open taekwondo champion

  • Mola_Ram 16 Nov 2012 08:26:56 7,250 posts
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    Funny how we're not having a giant panic about Iran anymore. A couple of months ago you'd have thought we were heading for a nuclear apocalypse, from what Bibi and some American candidates were saying.
  • SClaw 16 Nov 2012 09:19:08 826 posts
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    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20353223

    Israel are starting DRAFT? Yeah... they are so going in on the ground.
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