Revolution in the middle east Page 55

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  • Mola_Ram 15 Nov 2012 11:55:59 8,243 posts
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    RobTheBuilder wrote:
    @Mola_Ram The one side or the other thing is a problem, but given most of the world's powers seem to support Israel no matter what they do, it's not surprising people want to back the Palestinians.
    But a large proportion of the Free Palestine (or whatever they're called in your country) movements have no idea about any of the complexities, or know anything about Israel apart from APARTHEID, KILLING BABIES, OPPRESSION, etc. There are some more reasoned arguments, of course, but I do wonder why it's this specific issue that gets people divisive the world over.
  • Deleted user 15 November 2012 11:57:37
    disusedgenius wrote:
    RobTheBuilder wrote:
    but given most of the world's powers seem to support Israel no matter what they do
    That's actually a false statement though. The world is pretty split on it - it just depends on where you get your news.
    It's also a bit of an over-simplification to say even America support Israel over Palestine. America are fully in support of the creation and stabilisation of a Palestinian state, and frequently condemn Israel for their actions.

    That's not to say they do a thing about Israel's heinous acts beyond condemnation, and yes, I'm not so naive as to think it's for anything other than show. However, pretty much nobody is standing shoulder-to-shoulder in full support of what Israel do.
  • disusedgenius 15 Nov 2012 11:58:29 5,609 posts
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    Not really - even American support isn't complete and unconditional any more. Besides, the US doesn't speak for the world or anything.

    Edit: /is late

    Edited by disusedgenius at 11:59:10 15-11-2012
  • RobTheBuilder 15 Nov 2012 11:59:40 6,521 posts
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    Well the deaths of so many innocent people for a start. Plus the oppressive nature of the way Israel reacts to the Palestinian people.

    As with everything there are two complex sides, but until the proper attention is drawn nothing will get sorted out peacefully.
  • RobTheBuilder 15 Nov 2012 12:01:25 6,521 posts
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    @kalel In terms of action though, it is still one sided. I agree it is getting better, but way too slowly.
  • disusedgenius 15 Nov 2012 12:03:04 5,609 posts
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    But again, the US != most of the world's powers.
  • LeoliansBro 15 Nov 2012 12:21:31 44,939 posts
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    In terms of projection of power and especially military power, the US stands alone.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Deleted user 15 November 2012 12:28:49
    They are more or less the only ones that could actually (at least try to) make Israel act differently.

    And they do. A bit. Not much mind you, and very ineffectually.
  • senso-ji 15 Nov 2012 13:00:17 6,038 posts
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    The US will stand shoulder to shoulder with all it's allies in conflict- be it South Korea vs the North, or Israel against Hamas. The reason people think Israel gets more favourable treatment is due to the vast amounts of aid and funding Israel gets compared the America's other allies.
  • LeoliansBro 15 Nov 2012 13:23:39 44,939 posts
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    Shoulder to shoulder? Like Obama's 'leading from the rear' policy in Libya, you mean? Don't forget that went down an absolute storm with congress and the populace.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • SClaw 15 Nov 2012 13:25:12 826 posts
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    @senso-ji No... they won't.

    Take the Japan-China-Taiwan island fiasco. The US pretty much walked away from that one quietly whistling to itself, despite its promises to two of those countries to defend their sovereign territory from China. And in South Korea itís much the same; during the artillery incident when the South looked like they were getting ready to give the North a smack the US backed right the hell off and yanked SK with them forcefully. They support their allies when it is domestically viable.
  • Psychotext 15 Nov 2012 13:27:43 55,030 posts
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    The US is utterly obsessed with Israel. Can you imagine their relationship with the UK being a factor in their presidential elections? I did ask various Americans about it once and got a number of responses as to why Israel was so important. Religion is apparently a major factor for some (with the Jews being "gods people" and Israel being the holy land.
  • LeoliansBro 15 Nov 2012 13:32:07 44,939 posts
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    Influential Jewish lobbies in DC as well.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Mola_Ram 15 Nov 2012 13:35:50 8,243 posts
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    They're not just Jewish though, so it's a bit wrong to call them "Jewish lobbies". Plenty of evangelical Christians and neocons on the wagon as well.

    Even though Israel doesn't really need this level of support anymore. They have the region's best armies and best military technology, and are already pretty much taking care of their own affairs.

    Oh, and they have nukes too.
  • LeoliansBro 15 Nov 2012 13:38:41 44,939 posts
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    Yes, there are all sorts of lobbies. However I was focussing on the Jewish ones, because they are a) influential, and b) support Israel.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Mola_Ram 15 Nov 2012 13:47:13 8,243 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    Yes, there are all sorts of lobbies. However I was focussing on the Jewish ones, because they are a) influential, and b) support Israel.
    Yes, but the members of the most influential pro-Israel lobby groups (eg. AIPAC) *are not exclusively Jewish*. So, calling them "Jewish" is inaccurate, and could also lead to accusations that one is singling out Jewish people in DC, saying that the Jews are pulling the strings, etc (I know that's not what you mean. I'm just saying that choice of words is important).

    It is better to just call them the "Israel lobby" or whatever. It's not a perfect term, because there are disagreements within these lobby groups, but overall it's a broad church that includes a bunch of Jewish and non-Jewish figures.
  • oceanmotion 15 Nov 2012 13:49:20 16,121 posts
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    Do they still deny they have nukes?
  • whatfruit 15 Nov 2012 13:49:50 1,680 posts
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    Nice explanation of the term Israel Lobbies and their influence in this article.

    http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/john-mearsheimer/the-israel-lobby

    Edited by whatfruit at 13:50:49 15-11-2012

    bobomb wrote:
    so it's not really on her terms, it's on his terms, because she isn't real.

  • Deleted user 15 November 2012 13:50:23
    It's also a regional thing. Big deal in places like NY, Washington and Florida. Couldn't give a fuck in the mid-West and such.
  • Mola_Ram 15 Nov 2012 13:53:08 8,243 posts
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    whatfruit wrote:
    Nice explanation of the term Israel Lobbies and their influence in this article.

    http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/john-mearsheimer/the-israel-lobby
    If that interests you, try out the book that Mearsheimer wrote with Stephen Walt, called The Israel Lobby. I don't agree with everything they write about, but it's persuasively argued for the most part.
  • LeoliansBro 15 Nov 2012 13:53:08 44,939 posts
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    Sorry yes. There are influential pro-Israel lobbies in DC.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Deleted user 15 November 2012 13:53:15
    oceanmotion wrote:
    Do they still deny they have nukes?
    They don't deny it. They don't have to either confirm nor deny as they're not part of the NPT.
  • Psychotext 15 Nov 2012 14:05:02 55,030 posts
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    4 minutes 16 seconds in and you see a rocket being fired from what's clearly a highly populated area. Astonishing.



  • jellyhead 15 Nov 2012 14:05:48 24,350 posts
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    There's loads of trails in the live stream apparently.

    This signature intentionally left blank.

  • senso-ji 15 Nov 2012 14:57:24 6,038 posts
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    whatfruit wrote:
    Nice explanation of the term Israel Lobbies and their influence in this article.

    http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/john-mearsheimer/the-israel-lobby
    Woah, and British Politicians like to boast about the 'special relationship' between the USA and ourselves? I'd love it if America treated us with half as much reverence.
  • SClaw 15 Nov 2012 15:35:17 826 posts
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    senso-ji wrote:
    whatfruit wrote:
    Nice explanation of the term Israel Lobbies and their influence in this article.

    http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/john-mearsheimer/the-israel-lobby
    Woah, and British Politicians like to boast about the 'special relationship' between the USA and ourselves? I'd love it if America treated us with half as much reverence.
    Pah. Our "special relationship" is that they sometimes give us a reach around while they're fucking us in the ass.

    Mearsheimer looks to have written some good shit. I'm going to have a better look at his books. On the other hand... I try to maintain a balanced reading list so I don't get too bias, which means I'll probably have to read Bush's autobiography or something to even myself out. Ewww... no thanks.
  • whatfruit 15 Nov 2012 15:37:34 1,680 posts
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    @SClaw Bush can write?

    bobomb wrote:
    so it's not really on her terms, it's on his terms, because she isn't real.

  • SClaw 15 Nov 2012 15:45:49 826 posts
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    @whatfruit Hell yeah. In coloured crayon and everything! He only has to ask Laura how to spell "George" these days - he's got the rest of that shit down now.
  • Deleted user 15 November 2012 15:58:52
    Mola_Ram wrote:
    They're not just Jewish though, so it's a bit wrong to call them "Jewish lobbies". Plenty of evangelical Christians and neocons on the wagon as well.

    Even though Israel doesn't really need this level of support anymore. They have the region's best armies and best military technology, and are already pretty much taking care of their own affairs.

    Oh, and they have nukes too.
    Neocon is just another word for Zionist.
  • MrTomFTW Moderator 15 Nov 2012 18:43:39 39,731 posts
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    Just an absolute :( :( :( :( from me.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/11/15/jihad-misharawi-bbc-arabic-baby-omar-killed-gaza-strike_n_2135095.html

    Follow me on Twitter: @MrTom
    Voted by the community "Best mod" 2011, 2012 and 2013.

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