The UK General Politics Thread Page 188

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  • Load_2.0 10 Jul 2014 14:36:32 19,670 posts
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    The legislation around data protection is alarming but not something i can get into on my phone.

    Have a look at the approach Germany takes.

    Mass surveillance is simply not that effective.
  • RedSparrows 10 Jul 2014 14:38:23 24,248 posts
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    Chopsen wrote:
    The state has a duty to ensure public money is spent appropriately though. Should a hospital cost half a million more to run every year just to avoid a "race to the bottom"? What else could that money be diverted too?

    No it shouldn't be a not a race to the bottom, and that sound bite misses the point and over-simplified the issue. Everybody deserves to be well paid, have job security, financial security etc. You don't achieve that by paying the public sector work force more, you do that by having fair and just employment law, sane taxation, access to training and support to get in to work, tacking discrimination, bullying etc etc. It's a massive issue, and over-paying people who happen to work in the public sector neither helps any of those issues and just creates a divided workforce.
    Bourgeois pig!
  • TheSaint 10 Jul 2014 14:42:38 14,829 posts
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    Surely it's about time the public sector moved to a regionalised rather than national pay scale.

    I can see why teachers etc. in the south complain but up north that kind of wage has to get you a pretty decent standard of living.
  • TheRealBadabing 10 Jul 2014 14:53:21 1,366 posts
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    Chopsen wrote:
    The state has a duty to ensure public money is spent appropriately though. Should a hospital cost half a million more to run every year just to avoid a "race to the bottom"? What else could that money be diverted too?
    More tax cuts for the rich? More CCTV cameras and spying? MP pay rises and expenses?

    It's just so hard to pick where the money would be better spent!


    No it shouldn't be a not a race to the bottom, and that sound bite misses the point and over-simplified the issue. Everybody deserves to be well paid, have job security, financial security etc. You don't achieve that by paying the public sector work force more, you do that by having fair and just employment law, sane taxation, access to training and support to get in to work, tacking discrimination, bullying etc etc. It's a massive issue, and over-paying people who happen to work in the public sector neither helps any of those issues and just creates a divided workforce.
    Try turning your argument around. Until we have fair and just employment law, sane taxation, access to training and support to get in to work, tacking discrimination, bullying etc etc in the private sector, targeting the public sector will always be a race to the bottom. We should be encouraging (by legislation if necessary) companies to treat employees fairly, not accepting that its all going to be shit from now on, so get used to it.
  • Tom_Servo 10 Jul 2014 14:53:54 18,082 posts
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    Load_2.0 wrote:
    In all my years in employment I cant recall ever being given a pay rise to continue doing my job. If they changed the remit or responsibilities I have been paid more but in order to make more money I have had to change jobs or advance to a more senior role.
    Surely your salary should go up with inflation though? Anything less is a pay cut in real terms!
  • MrTomFTW Moderator 10 Jul 2014 14:54:57 39,762 posts
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    I haven't had a pay rise in the near 5 years I've been in this job. Not even one for inflation.

    Same goes for my days at BT as well. I just get poorer each year :(

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  • Tom_Servo 10 Jul 2014 14:58:46 18,082 posts
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    Unfortunately I'm not surprised. I'm not sure what excuse there is for a salary not to rise with inflation (I know there are different measures).
  • TheRealBadabing 10 Jul 2014 15:00:18 1,366 posts
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    Load_2.0 wrote:
    Also outside of base salary public sector has some pretty amazing benefits and security.
    That was the case maybe 20 years ago but even then it was mostly the pension that sweetened the deal. These days, anyone joining any public organisation (including police and armed forces) don't get anywhere near as good a package.

    Some of you should have a look in your local papers to see what an admin assistant earns in the NHS these days. Try to remember if you see an ad that everyone is offered the lowest salary on the quoted scale.
  • chopsen 10 Jul 2014 15:01:33 16,290 posts
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    TheRealBadabing wrote:
    Chopsen wrote:
    The state has a duty to ensure public money is spent appropriately though. Should a hospital cost half a million more to run every year just to avoid a "race to the bottom"? What else could that money be diverted too?
    More tax cuts for the rich? More CCTV cameras and spying? MP pay rises and expenses?

    It's just so hard to pick where the money would be better spent!
    That's why I *specifically* mentioned a hospital. You could invest that in, say, clinical staff training, equipment procurement etc.

    Try turning your argument around. Until we have fair and just employment law, sane taxation, access to training and support to get in to work, tacking discrimination, bullying etc etc in the private sector, targeting the public sector will always be a race to the bottom. We should be encouraging (by legislation if necessary) companies to treat employees fairly, not accepting that its all going to be shit from now on, so get used to it.
    Yeah, that's the point I thought I was making. Private/public division is irrelevant if you've got adequate protection for employee rights, pay and conditions via other means (i.e. law)

    Edited by Chopsen at 15:01:55 10-07-2014
  • TheRealBadabing 10 Jul 2014 15:09:35 1,366 posts
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    @Chopsen misread your post then, apologies.

    Personally I would rather the low-paid workers in organisations like the NHS were paid properly. They are already on very low salaries so these below-inflation rises hurt them the most. Screw the middle/senior management instead, and that's speaking as an ex-NHS middle manager.
  • Dougs 14 Jul 2014 19:54:35 69,516 posts
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    Reshuffle underway:

    http://order-order.com/2014/07/14/the-reshuffle-all-the-sackings-as-they-happen/
  • chopsen 14 Jul 2014 20:39:41 16,290 posts
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    "Ken Clarke quits as Minister Without Portfolio."

    Hah. Resign from not having a job. Nice
  • Deleted user 14 July 2014 20:43:50
    Any word on Gove yet? :)

    Edited by Adv at 20:49:25 14-07-2014
  • TheSaint 14 Jul 2014 20:48:17 14,829 posts
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    Byker?
  • Tom_Servo 14 Jul 2014 20:48:33 18,082 posts
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    Disappointing that Clarke is out. Obviously not a surprise, but one of the few Tories I have time for.

    On Gove: there's an incredible rumour in the current Private Eye that he might be gearing up to become the next editor of the Mail!
  • Rodpad 14 Jul 2014 20:50:21 2,097 posts
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    In the comments section:

    How’s that story about the phone conversation on the train looking? Is IDS OK?
    Amazing :D
  • Tom_Servo 14 Jul 2014 20:52:14 18,082 posts
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    Loved some of the final lines in the BBC's quotes from the Special Adviser at the centre of that IDS train story:

    Romilly Dennys, a DWP special adviser, is at the centre of speculation that she was the woman on the train talking about the reshuffle.

    "It is just complete nonsense... some person on a train has heard two names and managed to cobble together a story," she said.

    "I am pretty convinced she (Quinney) is a Labour supporter.

    "The whole thing is just a complete storm in a teacup. Someone overheard two names and she just created this whole story. The story is completely incorrect".
  • chopsen 14 Jul 2014 20:52:29 16,290 posts
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    Yeah, but he is shockingly bad at playing the media. I am more disappointed with the state of affairs that this matters so much more than actually having integrity or intelligence as a politician.
  • Tom_Servo 14 Jul 2014 20:54:49 18,082 posts
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    Clarke? I suspect he's just past giving a shit about playing the media, rather than necessarily being bad at it.

    Edited by Tom_Servo at 20:55:07 14-07-2014
  • FWB 14 Jul 2014 22:19:42 45,613 posts
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    Hague out as foreign minister. Yewtree calling?
  • mothercruncher 14 Jul 2014 22:24:29 7,845 posts
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    Was just about to post that- I wonder how many names who are leaving now will, in future, be resurfacing as in some way complicit in the paedo/abuse scandals...
  • WoodenSpoon 14 Jul 2014 23:40:45 12,306 posts
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    At least if Ken Clarke turns out to be a pedo I'll be able to unreservedly hate all Tories.
  • MrTomFTW Moderator 15 Jul 2014 07:57:24 39,762 posts
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    Could Hague not have taken that snivelling twat Gove with him?

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  • Bremenacht 15 Jul 2014 08:53:58 19,663 posts
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    I've not not seen the changes but I'm assuming they amount to another shift to the right, as DC tries to win UKIP votes back.
  • Deleted user 15 July 2014 08:59:03
    Most likely. It won't work though.
  • askew 15 Jul 2014 09:07:10 12,724 posts
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    Look on the bright side, we've still got Cameron, Osbourne, and Duncan-Smith.
  • Tom_Servo 15 Jul 2014 09:14:22 18,082 posts
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    MrTomFTW wrote:
    Could Hague not have taken that snivelling twat Gove with him?
    HE HAS!

    Gove is now Chief Whip.
  • X201 15 Jul 2014 09:40:47 15,745 posts
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    Tom_Servo wrote:
    MrTomFTW wrote:
    Could Hague not have taken that snivelling twat Gove with him?
    HE HAS!

    Gove is now Chief Whip.
    There'll be dancing in the staffrooms of Britain tonight

    Edited by X201 at 09:41:11 15-07-2014
  • President_Weasel 15 Jul 2014 09:44:16 9,663 posts
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    Bremenacht wrote:
    I've not not seen the changes but I'm assuming they amount to another shift to the right, as DC tries to win UKIP votes back.
    Hammond as foreign secretary is a bone thrown to the Ukippers, given he's a euroskeptic who said he would vote to leave the EU.

    Throwing meat to the wolves just makes them stronger, once you've paid the danegeld you never get rid of the Dane, etc and so on. Tacking UKIP-wards strengthens them. Idiot.
  • TheSaint 15 Jul 2014 09:53:14 14,829 posts
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    Has an education secretary ever been popular with teachers?
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