The UK General Politics Thread Page 93

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  • RobTheBuilder 30 Apr 2013 13:56:20 6,976 posts
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    @cubbymoore meanwhile those older people are still working part time jobs and keeping the younger generation who are supposed to pay for them out of work.
  • Deleted user 30 April 2013 14:05:08
    Bullshit stats

    I don't think this'll surprise anyone but it's good to see someone calling them out on it.
  • Deleted user 30 April 2013 14:15:27
    I thought IDS had the right idea when he first started talking about this and producing some research, but it's all just turned into a nasty little hatchet job. Just as long as enough people lose out, it can be presented to the Daily Mail as a success story.
  • spamdangled 30 Apr 2013 14:21:17 30,982 posts
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    Heh. So much for open and transparent government.
  • RobTheBuilder 30 Apr 2013 14:31:56 6,976 posts
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    The difference here I think is the intent. iDS and co are deliberately lying and manipulating over the long term in order to destroy social care.
  • TheSaint 30 Apr 2013 14:35:41 17,402 posts
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    How would you even go about counting the economically inactive people?
  • spamdangled 30 Apr 2013 14:41:38 30,982 posts
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    TheSaint wrote:
    How would you even go about counting the economically inactive people?
    Well they've still got NI numbers (presumably). So there must be a way to count the number of NI numbers belonging to people of working age that aren't either taking money out or paying in to the system. Sure there would be a margin of error, but it would at least give a rough idea.

    Edited by darkmorgado at 14:42:48 30-04-2013
  • Deleted user 30 April 2013 14:42:02
    Residential TV usage.
  • spamdangled 30 Apr 2013 14:44:27 30,982 posts
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    mcmonkeyplc wrote:
    Residential TV usage.
    Not sure that would work, given the amount of people who don't pay a TV license. Doing it by cross-referencing local authority records with DWP ones might be a better bet.

    Or are you saying that's actually how they do it?
  • Mr_Sleep 30 Apr 2013 14:46:02 21,318 posts
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    The power grid is probably a good indicator too.
  • Deleted user 30 April 2013 14:46:57
    cubbymoore wrote:
    The main problem is that people don't die off any more. If they were crap in the past they died. Now we prop them up and they keep on moaning because the world's incomprehensible to them.

    Basically, my point is Simon Cowell should commission Running Man.
    You paint a pretty bleak social picture.
  • Mr_Sleep 30 Apr 2013 14:50:28 21,318 posts
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    It's a true picture though. It's a sad thing but in purely economic terms the old are a real problem for growth. With the diminishing production of child units and the increase in the length of retirees living our economy will eventually grind to a halt. At least under the current methodology anyway. It will all stagnate and then everyone will fuck off to where the money and jobs are.
  • spamdangled 30 Apr 2013 14:50:48 30,982 posts
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    Logan's Run had the right idea.
  • Mr_Sleep 30 Apr 2013 14:51:19 21,318 posts
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    You mean sex on demand?
  • spamdangled 30 Apr 2013 15:01:12 30,982 posts
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    That too.
  • Mr_Sleep 30 Apr 2013 15:23:46 21,318 posts
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    Just had an email fromt 38 Degrees that made me laugh:

    "Sadly our environment minister, Owen Paterson, voted against the ban. But enough other countries voted in favour and the vote was won. ​

    38 Degrees members have been working hard to protect our bees. Here are some of the highlights: ​

    - Over 300,000 of us signed the petition to ban these pesticides [2]
    - Over 40,000 of us emailed our MPs
    ​- In the environment minister's constituency, in North Shropshire, over 50 local 38 Degrees members came face to face with him to deliver the petition and demand he changed his mind.
    - Hundreds of 38 Degrees members joined up with a host of other campaign organisations to hold a ĎMarch of the Beekeepersí in Parliament square.​"

    Nice example of democracy there where all those members petitioned him and he just ignored them anyway, presumably due to pressure from the chemical industry. Woo democracy!
  • imamazed 30 Apr 2013 15:25:57 6,307 posts
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    Was to bee expected, tbh. Doesn't matter how much buzz you generate, you could generate a whole hive of local activity; and they still won't listen honey!

    Edited by imamazed at 15:26:14 30-04-2013
  • RobTheBuilder 30 Apr 2013 15:58:22 6,976 posts
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    A stinging critique there
  • glaeken 30 Apr 2013 16:37:58 11,884 posts
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    @Mr_Sleep Doing what pressure groups want is not democracy. Why should the government take action based on a very small vocal minority of the electorate?

    Maybe I hate bees and my way of showing this was not to sign a petition or write a letter to my MP?

    Just because people can be bothered to get off their arse and get uppity about something is no reason to do what they say. Who is going to protect the rights of the apathetic majority?

    In actual fact I donít hate bees and I probably agree with the general aims of the campaign but if the government does change policy based on the actions of pressure groups itís not democratic itís the tyranny of listening to a loud minority.
  • TheSaint 30 Apr 2013 16:50:18 17,402 posts
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    Another good example of this would be the fact that over 1mil people marched in Paris against gay marriage, so should that have been rejected as well?

    Where do we draw the line?

    Edited by TheSaint at 16:50:42 30-04-2013
  • glaeken 30 Apr 2013 17:02:05 11,884 posts
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    I would say we draw the line at the point where law and order breaks down due to the numbers protesting.

    We have a democratic process don't we where we decide who we want to represent us in government decisions? I mean itís shit but I prefer that to mob rule.

    Why should we elect governments but also allow a system of rule by loud shouty people if they get enough critical mass? Though of course I guess ultimately that is what a revolution is so there is always that recourse in the face of major issues with our government. I am guessing that's never going to happen over most pressure group type issues though. The revolution of the bees could be pretty cool though.

    Edited by glaeken at 17:03:40 30-04-2013
  • rudedudejude 30 Apr 2013 17:22:20 2,340 posts
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    glaeken wrote:
    We have a democratic process don't we where we decide who we want to represent us in government decisions? I mean itís shit but I prefer that to mob rule.
    Well, that's in an ideal world.

    In reality, we just choose one of two parties to run our country. They choose ministers for this and that and the other, who represent us. But they really only represent around one third of the electorate (I think it's around that number).

    The choices and wishes of everyone else are entirely ignored.
  • spamdangled 30 Apr 2013 18:04:22 30,982 posts
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    Hmm. So Chris Grayling has come out and said (just before local elections, no less) that they will be making prison tougher. Sure, it will win votes and no politician wants to come across as "easy" on crime, but this approach simply doesn't work.

    This always gets my back up. We have a reoffending rate of over 50% (the US is over 60% - and they have the fucking death penalty). THAT'S what we need to look at.

    If prison worked as a deterrant, there wouldn't be any criminals - and a deterrant only works if all crime is premeditated and not committed in the heat of the moment.

    Norway has what has been described as the most liberal prison on the planet (Bastoy island) and has the lowest rate of reoffending in Europe.

    Edited by darkmorgado at 18:07:21 30-04-2013
  • RichDC 30 Apr 2013 18:25:11 7,553 posts
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    Prison isn't a deterrent at the moment for most criminals because the sentences aren't long enough. This is from the mouths of criminals I speak to both inside and outside. They are willing to take the risk knowing that its unlikely they will do more than a few months at most. Sentences of years are rare, and when they know they are facing such, they will beg and plead and do anything they can to avoid going.

    The real issue is the lack of rehabilitation provisions available, and this again is often due to length of sentences. Rehabilitation on the outside rarely works as they are constantly surrounded by associates/family who will try to drag them back on a criminal path and provide too much temptation.

    Inside, courses are available but require time to sign up for and complete. Someone given 6 months will be placed on a 3 month rehabilitation course, which seems sensible. The problem is though that there will likely be no space on that course for 3/4 months by which time they've probably left after serving half a sentence.

    Longer sentences give people time to complete rehabilitation courses without distraction and they have time to get help to prepare them for life outside. Generally (not always) the people I deal with who get longer sentences (serve over a year) re-offend a lot less.

    I'm afraid I can't back any of this up with links/stats etc. Its just what I learn from actually talking to the people effected.
  • spamdangled 30 Apr 2013 18:38:07 30,982 posts
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    Megapocalypse wrote:
    The real issue is the lack of rehabilitation provisions available, and this again is often due to length of sentences. Rehabilitation on the outside rarely works as they are constantly surrounded by associates/family who will try to drag them back on a criminal path and provide too much temptation.
    What about introducing a step-down system similar to that used for mental health patients being reintroduced to society after periods under Section? They'd need to stay in staffed house under supervision and with the same visiting rules as regular prison, but are reintroduced back into society in a controlled manner where they have limited exposure to any outside factors that could cause them to reoffend?

    With regards to shorter sentences, a lot of those people arguably shouldn't have been imprisoned in the first place (especially when people literally get away with murder in comparison). The guy who was imprisoned for nicking a bottle of mineral water during the London Riots always struck me as completely disproportionate, for example.
  • cubbymoore 30 Apr 2013 19:07:22 36,620 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    Megapocalypse wrote:
    The real issue is the lack of rehabilitation provisions available, and this again is often due to length of sentences. Rehabilitation on the outside rarely works as they are constantly surrounded by associates/family who will try to drag them back on a criminal path and provide too much temptation.
    What about introducing a step-down system similar to that used for mental health patients being reintroduced to society after periods under Section? They'd need to stay in staffed house under supervision and with the same visiting rules as regular prison, but are reintroduced back into society in a controlled manner where they have limited exposure to any outside factors that could cause them to reoffend?
    That is kind of what happens now anyway. Prisoners move into different categories from A to D, and D prisoners can move to more open prisons, where they get better treatments and work. D category prisons give them a chance to go out occasionally. The thing is you have to be on a long stretch to get that opportunity.
  • spamdangled 30 Apr 2013 19:12:34 30,982 posts
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    There's an interesting debate going on on http://www.lbc.co.uk at the moment about this.
  • Deleted user 30 April 2013 23:34:55
    I thought the government -showing the wisdom for which it is now renowned- was in the process of dismantling the state probation service with the aim of handing the work over to those experts at A4E and other workfare type firms?

    On top of blowing 10s of mils on rubbish computers, of course.
  • spamdangled 30 Apr 2013 23:40:20 30,982 posts
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    Tomrrows front page on the Independent - the government plans to sell of parts of the Civil Service to private companies.

    Oh dear. It's like they're quite literally trying to privatise the entire fucking country.

    Edited by darkmorgado at 23:40:45 30-04-2013
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