The UK General Politics Thread Page 89

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  • spamdangled 24 Apr 2013 04:01:04 27,441 posts
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    Well that surely depends on how widely the arrangements were previously reported on. If they weren't widely reported (normally achieved by government through burying clauses like this in dense legislation or by announcing things at times where other news is likely to take precedence - cough *thatcher funeral* cough), then the point stands.

    The Tories made clear commitments in their election campaign and after coming to power about "Open Government". It was one of their big stunts, that they still like to roll out on a frequent basis when they go into hyper-defensive mode (which is pretty frequently).

    The fact that they made, and continue to make those claims whilst enjoying arrangements that allow them to suppress genuine criminal wrongdoing if it has a negative impact on Party funding fundamentally undermines that entire platform and also undermines Democracy as a whole and shows utter hypocrisy. It also raises questions about whether or not they have exercised those powers and pertaining to who and what. Not to mention how it undermines the supposed party ethos of being tough on crime.

    Whether Labour introduced the measures in the first place is of little relevance beyond attempting to deflect legitimate concerns when challenged on the issue by the Labour Party by saying "well, you started it, so you're to blame!" - made more ironic by the fact that the Tories utterly love to deflect criticism from Labour by saying they didn't change certain Tory policies during the Blair/Brown governments.

    Not excusing Labour at all (assuming it was them that created this situation in the first place), just saying that attempting to weasle out of accountability because of it is lazy and, erm, weasly. And I'm certainly not ignoring the fact that the Lib Dem section of the coalition may well have been aware of this either.

    Edited by darkmorgado at 09:58:15 24-04-2013

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  • Bremenacht 24 Apr 2013 09:14:50 19,648 posts
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    You read PE, don't you DM? They've covered it before.

    Cut-backs it is, against a background of high-profile costly cock-ups. The lastest one with the Tchenguiz(?) brothers could cost the UK an awful lot of money.

    The 'secret' bit sounds rather new, but could an explanation for that simply be that they wouldn't want a potential defendant to hear of a case being built against them? I've not read your link tbf, so perhaps it already covers that thought.
  • spamdangled 24 Apr 2013 09:55:40 27,441 posts
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    I read it on and off, not religiously. Wouldn't surprise me if it's cropped up there before though, seeing as how they seem months ahead of the mainstream media with these things (no doubt helped by their publish-first-and-check-facts-later approach).

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  • 4gate 24 Apr 2013 10:12:33 362 posts
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    Often years ahead, and despite that approach they are rarely sued, even in the most libel-plantiff friendly environment on the planet. They do of course print loads of corrections in the letters pages.

    I'd like everyone to read PE. Just as a fairly recent example, the voters of whichever area (can't remember) with a councillor who fucked off to the Paris-Dakar Rally whilst still claiming 6K a month, then when challenged by PE promised to give it to charity (thus keeping all the associated benefits), then didn't give it to charity anyway until challenged again by PE, when he finally donated about 500, would maybe actually do something about scum like him, if they knew about it. But probably only about 3 of them read PE, and 2 of those only the funny bits.
  • spamdangled 24 Apr 2013 10:19:17 27,441 posts
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    It's pretty much required reading in the House of Commons going by what I've read and watched over the years (and a lot of the stories are sourced from the civil service and politicians in the first place). The Tories seem to hate it with a particular passion (I wonder why?). I do occasionally wonder whether there is mainstream political pressure which leads to most of their stories not getting the wider coverage they deserve. But it's probably the gagging effect of the libel laws here, as you say.

    Edited by darkmorgado at 10:20:16 24-04-2013

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  • Bremenacht 24 Apr 2013 10:48:27 19,648 posts
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    They are rarely(?) sued because they word their articles very carefully and are prepared to defend themselves in court. The letters in the letters pages aren't corrections - they're replies. Doesn't mean there isn't any substance to a story. One of their techniques is to print a vague piece on someone or some organisation and see if it rattles their cage. Said person/org then digs a hole for themselves and does PE's work for them! Or, nothing happens and that's that. Apologies/corrections are fairly explicit and come from the editor or in the form of a headed article. Should I get out more? :(

    Dunno why you pick out the Tories there, DM. They all hate it. And love it. Just as long as it's the other side being shamed-up.
  • 4gate 24 Apr 2013 10:53:23 362 posts
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    Corrections / replies, agreed, which differentiates them from the rest of the press, who squash most contrary opinion provided to them by not publishing it, and/or redacting articles, and/or disabling any comments online on the subject. If the rest of the press behaved like PE, the country would be a significantly better place. imho ofc.
  • spamdangled 24 Apr 2013 11:39:44 27,441 posts
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    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22278067

    Cameron backs "Clean wifi" internet censorship.

    Mr Cameron told the Telegraph he wanted people to "have confidence in public wi-fi systems so that they are not going to see things they shouldn't".

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  • Psychotext 24 Apr 2013 11:53:03 55,032 posts
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    lol
  • spamdangled 24 Apr 2013 12:05:14 27,441 posts
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    I love how we are all too stupid to decide for ourselves what we should be seeing.

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  • spamdangled 24 Apr 2013 12:06:16 27,441 posts
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    Bloody hell, Milliband is seriously on the offensive in PMQs.

    He's *almost* making himself look electable.

    Edited by darkmorgado at 12:06:42 24-04-2013

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  • mcmonkeyplc 24 Apr 2013 12:28:39 39,566 posts
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    Don't be silly.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • spamdangled 24 Apr 2013 12:52:48 27,441 posts
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    Deportation of Abu Qatada is now back to square one.

    The treaty arrangement with Jordan has been renegotiated and will take 21 days to ratify. Once that's done, they can make a new application for deportation, but that means he can appeal again, and again, and again, then go to the European court, and then appeal again, and again.

    So it's taken 10 years, and could take another 10 years.

    Oh, and it's been suggested that Tories will use the issue as a cover reason to leave the Human Rights convention.

    Edited by darkmorgado at 12:54:15 24-04-2013

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  • Rodpad 24 Apr 2013 13:41:36 2,093 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-22278067

    Cameron backs "Clean wifi" internet censorship.

    Mr Cameron told the Telegraph he wanted people to "have confidence in public wi-fi systems so that they are not going to see things they shouldn't".
    Amazing.

    Disconnect from wifi, use 3G, search for tits, result.

    Fucking waste of money and resources.
  • LeoliansBro 24 Apr 2013 13:56:36 44,954 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    Oh, and it's been suggested that Tories will use the issue as a cover reason to leave the Human Rights convention.
    And I have absolutely no problem with this.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • TheSaint 24 Apr 2013 14:03:22 14,826 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    Oh, and it's been suggested that Tories will use the issue as a cover reason to leave the Human Rights convention.
    By you?
  • spamdangled 24 Apr 2013 14:39:26 27,441 posts
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    Defamation bill being debated atm, specifically giving website hosts protection against content posted/circulated by posters. Could benefit P2P sites as well.

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  • spamdangled 24 Apr 2013 14:39:48 27,441 posts
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    TheSaint wrote:
    darkmorgado wrote:
    Oh, and it's been suggested that Tories will use the issue as a cover reason to leave the Human Rights convention.
    By you?
    No, by Theresa May in answer to questions raised after her statement on Abu Qatada.

    Edited by darkmorgado at 14:42:41 24-04-2013

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  • TheSaint 24 Apr 2013 14:47:54 14,826 posts
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    You seemed to have missed the word temporarily.

    On the possibility of the UK temporarily withdrawing from the European Court on Human Rights, Mrs May said it was her view that the UK needed to "fix that relationship".

    She said the prime minister was exploring options, including temporary withdrawal, and it was "sensible" to have "all options on the table".
    I can't really decide how I feel about this. Obviously it was created with the best intentions but it just seems like it has so many loop holes.
  • RedSparrows 24 Apr 2013 14:57:24 24,159 posts
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    The loop holes aren't loop holes as such, as I understand it. They're more unpleasantries that governments don't want to have to deal with: i.e. Qatada can't be deported because Jordan won't treat witnesses and the like with the proper respect for their rights - not Qatada's rights, etc.
  • spamdangled 24 Apr 2013 15:22:47 27,441 posts
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    TheSaint wrote:
    You seemed to have missed the word temporarily.

    On the possibility of the UK temporarily withdrawing from the European Court on Human Rights, Mrs May said it was her view that the UK needed to "fix that relationship".

    She said the prime minister was exploring options, including temporary withdrawal, and it was "sensible" to have "all options on the table".
    I can't really decide how I feel about this. Obviously it was created with the best intentions but it just seems like it has so many loop holes.
    "Temporarily". Given the Tories are making a big thing about leaving the convention entirely (partly because their hand has been forced by UKIP), I think calling it a temporary measure is a bit misleading, given that if they had their way we would never go back into it.

    With regards to the loopholes, well they aren't so much loopholes as they are interpretations. The original convention is pretty short, with little in the way of elaboration or giving much context for interpretation. It was fairly inevitable that as time moved on it was going to become a thorny issue. It definitely needs revising and updating to clarify certain aspects (does one right take priority over another when the two clash, should victims' rights take precedence over the rights of offenders, etc). But we could only do that by being part of that process, and leaving the convention would send a bad signal and cause reputational damage. Not to mention undermine our ability to criticise nations like Syria for abusing human rights.

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  • RobTheBuilder 24 Apr 2013 15:27:18 6,521 posts
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    It will be a temporary exit that they string out as long as possible until they can say we might as well stay out.

    When history looks back on the actions of this government it will be with the embarassed condemnation of a society that let them get away with everything but murder.
  • Retroid Moderator 24 Apr 2013 15:31:31 45,310 posts
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    I want to commit some crimes. Bit of theft, murder, you know.

    Presumably Theresa May will be OK with me temporarily withdrawing my UK citizenship during this period?

    After all, if she's so crap that she can't work out how to do something within the framework of existing law then I should be OK! \o/
  • spamdangled 24 Apr 2013 16:48:38 27,441 posts
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    New report raises concerns over illegal school exclusions

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  • spamdangled 25 Apr 2013 12:05:18 27,441 posts
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    The "shares for rights" bill has passed.

    Urgh.

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  • spamdangled 25 Apr 2013 12:08:09 27,441 posts
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    And Lottery could increase election turnout, says Labour

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  • TheSaint 25 Apr 2013 12:12:30 14,826 posts
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    The lottery is referred to as an idiot tax for a reason. I'd rather they stayed at home.
  • DFawkes 25 Apr 2013 12:15:26 24,046 posts
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    I vote anyway (mostly pointlessly as I believe it's one of the strongest Labour strongholds, hence Gordon Brown as our MP). Wouldn't mind a chance to win something on top of that :)

    Oh for goodness sake, I've caught my scrotum in my zip again - Margaret Thatcher, 1986

  • cubbymoore 25 Apr 2013 14:28:10 36,504 posts
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    The snoopers charter's been temporarily killed by Clegg. Maybe he's found a backbone somewhere after all. Could he perhaps apply this backbone to everything else the conservatives are forcing through as well please?
  • spamdangled 27 Apr 2013 15:53:42 27,441 posts
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    Don't agree with the Tories? Here, have some subtle brainwashing courtesy of David Cameron

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