The UK General Politics Thread Page 75

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  • Chopsen 5 Feb 2013 11:45:23 15,727 posts
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    I think the tory party is actually two parties. On the one hand, you have the reactionary little Englanders who want everything to be a some kind of white middle class utopia. They're the Eurosceptics, the anti-gay marriage, angry-from-turbridge-wells types. Then there are a lot of very pragmatic people in there as well: people like Ken Clarke and (whisper it) Hague and probably even Cameron himself. Though part of Cameron's pragmatism is that he feels he needs to do what he can for the sake of party unity. The party is fundamentally dysfunctional because of this.
  • LeoliansBro 5 Feb 2013 11:50:11 43,236 posts
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    Same applies to Labour ('progressive' pseudo-Tory Mandlesons and flap cap whippet touching dinosaurs) and the Lib Dems (lefty champagne socialists and libertarian fantasists). No 'party' is ideologically sound, or really anything like as cohesive as would be suggesting by their styling as a unit.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Moot_Point 5 Feb 2013 11:54:52 3,917 posts
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    DaM wrote:
    darkmorgado wrote:
    My fingers are firmly crossed for the gay marriage vote later today.
    Shouldn't be in doubt? With Labour, Lib Dem and a chunk of the Tories voting for?

    I still can't fathom the arguments against it, other than straightforward, good old fashioned homophobia. I don't recall anything about children, sex or God in my bog standard marriage vows. They want to "protect" marriage by ... not letting people get married...
    Political correctness gone mad, eh?

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  • Chopsen 5 Feb 2013 12:00:26 15,727 posts
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    True, but the Nu-Labour thing is I think is dying a bit now: it was only ever a thing because Labour wanted to capture more of the floating voters or disillusioned soft tories. Since the wars and fucked economy, that's no longer something is going to be getting strongly behind. They're currently quite (soft) socialist in their thinking, and don't seem to have much argument in public at least over that. The Tory's even in opposition would get it's knickers in a twist over Europe for example.

    As for lib dems, champagne socialists or libertarian fantasists, they both have a lot of common ground I think, which kind of defines the party. Hopelessly idealistic, but they are at least unified in it.

    Edited by Chopsen at 12:00:47 05-02-2013
  • Chopsen 5 Feb 2013 12:01:59 15,727 posts
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    Although each party are all, as a whole, arseholes.

    Edited by Chopsen at 12:02:17 05-02-2013
  • LeoliansBro 5 Feb 2013 12:04:36 43,236 posts
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    David Miliband was as New Labour as Tony ever was. Although the arcane voting system was always going to screw him over in favour of his melty faced communist brother.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Mr_Sleep 5 Feb 2013 12:14:11 16,852 posts
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    The sooner the party system is dissolved the better.

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • LeoliansBro 5 Feb 2013 12:19:00 43,236 posts
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    What? There is no 'system'. Parties are 'official' in the same way threads discussing games on here are 'official' - they only exist in that they say they do.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Kanjin 5 Feb 2013 12:22:55 1,056 posts
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    How are Labour Socialist these days? If anything I thought they were more right wing than ever.
  • Deleted user 5 February 2013 12:23:13
    DaM wrote:
    darkmorgado wrote:
    My fingers are firmly crossed for the gay marriage vote later today.
    Shouldn't be in doubt? With Labour, Lib Dem and a chunk of the Tories voting for?

    I still can't fathom the arguments against it, other than straightforward, good old fashioned homophobia. I don't recall anything about children, sex or God in my bog standard marriage vows. They want to "protect" marriage by ... not letting people get married...
    It's not necessarily homophobia, although that is the easy thing to believe it is and I'm sure it is in the majority of instances. There is also the argument that marriage represents something that cannot be replicated by a gay couple, and that's more about the tradition of what marriage is.

    I'm not against it but I wouldn't bother to argue for it.
  • spamdangled 5 Feb 2013 12:24:24 27,269 posts
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    Chopsen wrote:
    As for lib dems, champagne socialists or libertarian fantasists, they both have a lot of common ground I think, which kind of defines the party. Hopelessly idealistic, but they are at least unified in it.
    Hehe. Raised an eyebrow at that one but it still made me chuckle :D

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  • spamdangled 5 Feb 2013 12:25:28 27,269 posts
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    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    The sooner the party system is dissolved the better.
    Parties are necessary for stable government. Otherwise you end up with 650 mps all arguing amongst themselves and nothing would ever get done.

    It's not an ideal situation, but it's a necessary... erm... not evil, but you know.

    Edited by darkmorgado at 12:26:14 05-02-2013

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  • Mr_Sleep 5 Feb 2013 12:28:46 16,852 posts
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    Is that so? I was under the impression that people voted for a party when they vote for a person in their local constituency. Say you were running as an MP, I wouldn't suddenly expect the country to become a communist state.

    Edited by Mr_Sleep at 12:28:56 05-02-2013

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • LeoliansBro 5 Feb 2013 12:30:20 43,236 posts
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    You vote for an MP, who is affiliated with a certain party.

    So in effect, while you are only electing your local representative in parliament, by inference you will be backing a party, a prospective PM etc.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Mr_Sleep 5 Feb 2013 12:32:14 16,852 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    The sooner the party system is dissolved the better.
    Parties are necessary for stable government. Otherwise you end up with 650 mps all arguing amongst themselves and nothing would ever get done.

    It's not an ideal situation, but it's a necessary... erm... not evil, but you know.
    Isn't that exactly what democracy is though? It's messy and complicated but people getting a say is kind of the point, no? God, power has clearly changed the lib dems :-P

    So the current system works well to represent my views? I'll tell you this, if I had a legitimate view that I expressed to my local MP and it went against the party decision then my view, no matter how legitimate, would not be put in place. If, however, my MP was more independent, then it would at least have a chance, as it is there is no faith in politics because of its very centralised nature.

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • spamdangled 5 Feb 2013 12:33:31 27,269 posts
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    What Leo said.

    You vote for an individual, not a party (otherwise there wouldn't be indepdendent candidates). The majority of those candidates will be members of a certain party.

    You think it's bad having a coalition of 2 parties now with all the bickering that goes on between them? Imagine what it would be like if we suddenly had to have a coalition of about a dozen different ones just to have a government (one of the main reasons there was no realistic way Labour could have remained in power after the last election - they would have had to be allied with pretty much every single party in the country)

    Edited by darkmorgado at 12:35:44 05-02-2013

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  • LeoliansBro 5 Feb 2013 12:34:19 43,236 posts
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    Democracy is where everything is decided by the people. We live in a Republic, where this is too unwieldy and so the people instead elect representatives to make decisions for them.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • LeoliansBro 5 Feb 2013 12:34:53 43,236 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    You think it's bad having a coalition of 2 parties now with all the bickering that goes on between them? Imagine what it would be like if we suddenly had to have a coalition of about a dozen different ones just to have a government.
    I take it you split from the Lib Dems on the question of PR then.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • spamdangled 5 Feb 2013 12:37:25 27,269 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    darkmorgado wrote:
    You think it's bad having a coalition of 2 parties now with all the bickering that goes on between them? Imagine what it would be like if we suddenly had to have a coalition of about a dozen different ones just to have a government.
    I take it you split from the Lib Dems on the question of PR then.
    I voted against being in coalition in the first place, and haven't been in the least bit happy with the senior members in govt, if that's what you mean. I'm still in the party, but I will be voting for a change in leadership at the next party conference.

    I'm all for PR, but it would need to come with other reforms as well in order to be effective in practice.

    Edited by darkmorgado at 12:39:08 05-02-2013

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  • LeoliansBro 5 Feb 2013 12:38:27 43,236 posts
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    PR stands for Proportional Representation.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Mr_Sleep 5 Feb 2013 12:38:40 16,852 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    You think it's bad having a coalition of 2 parties now with all the bickering that goes on between them? Imagine what it would be like if we suddenly had to have a coalition of about a dozen different ones just to have a government.
    I don't think it's bad having a coalition of 2 parties, I'm pretty sure it was suggested in this thread very recently that the parties as they stand are already parties of divisions anyway.

    I'm not sure what I think really, I just think the current system is fucked and doesn't represent us as people and down the line things are not going to improve. I have no idea what the solution to that is though.

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • spamdangled 5 Feb 2013 12:39:45 27,269 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    PR stands for Proportional Representation.
    Erm yes LB, I'm aware of that :D

    For a second I just thought if you were asking if I had "split from the party" in the sense of leaving the party.

    Edited by darkmorgado at 12:41:01 05-02-2013

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  • Deleted user 5 February 2013 12:40:29
    I would much rather the party I support to have no influence over policy than having some. As an act of protest I'm going to do nothing for another 5 years.
  • LeoliansBro 5 Feb 2013 12:41:47 43,236 posts
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    The solution is to get involved yourself. If you can't be bothered to get out there and campaign then you don't care enough about changing the status quo.

    Yes yes there are barriers to entry around patronage and money, but if the system is broken enough and your opinion is supported by enough people you'll get to a position where you can change things regardless of where you came from. Look at the old Labour party.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • LeoliansBro 5 Feb 2013 12:43:36 43,236 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    LeoliansBro wrote:
    PR stands for Proportional Representation.
    Erm yes LB, I'm aware of that :D

    For a second I just thought if you were asking if I had "split from the party" in the sense of leaving the party.
    Not what I meant. You don't like coalitions, you were critical of the situation in Europe where Governments are often knitted together from several parties. I was just assuming this means you disagree with the LD stance on PR, because electoral fragmentation and the risk of political deadlock are unavoidable consequences.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • spamdangled 5 Feb 2013 12:46:32 27,269 posts
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    It's not that I don't like coalitions. I don't like this coalition because our parties are diametrically opposed on most major issues - particularly when it comes to social policy - other than both being economic liberals and I think that the setup of the system in the UK as it currently stands would need some reforms in order to make a PR system viable in practice.

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  • LeoliansBro 5 Feb 2013 12:48:17 43,236 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    It's not that I don't like coalitions.
    darkmorgado also wrote:You think it's bad having a coalition of 2 parties now with all the bickering that goes on between them? Imagine what it would be like if we suddenly had to have a coalition of about a dozen different ones just to have a government.
    Sorry for my confusion, you can see where it came from though.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • spamdangled 5 Feb 2013 12:48:47 27,269 posts
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    The debate has just started. I see the expected Tories are already piping up

    /sigh

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  • spamdangled 5 Feb 2013 12:49:24 27,269 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    darkmorgado wrote:
    It's not that I don't like coalitions.
    darkmorgado also wrote:You think it's bad having a coalition of 2 parties now with all the bickering that goes on between them? Imagine what it would be like if we suddenly had to have a coalition of about a dozen different ones just to have a government.
    Sorry for my confusion, you can see where it came from though.
    Yeah I can see that dude :) I could have worded it a bit better.

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  • Mr_Sleep 5 Feb 2013 12:51:39 16,852 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    The solution is to get involved yourself. If you can't be bothered to get out there and campaign then you don't care enough about changing the status quo.

    I just don't believe that is true. That's what I'm told but I have no belief that I can get involved in a meaningful way or change anything. What about all the people who get out there and campaign on meaningful issues in their hundreds of thousands and are routinely ignored by our benevolent rulers?

    I'm sure there's a degree of truth in what you are saying, I care enough to moan about it but not enough to form concrete opinions and get out and do something. This is the ambivalence brought on partly by my personality and by the system as it stands. If I was inspired to care then that would help me be less ambivalent but it just seems like if one actually got involved it would be a huge waste of time. Although I'm unemployed so time I have!

    Edited by Mr_Sleep at 12:56:39 05-02-2013

    You are a factory of sadness.

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