The UK General Politics Thread Page 56

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  • Deleted user 21 October 2012 16:15:26
    It's the same with Hillsborough. People want individuals to be accountable for systemic flaws.

    It's always like that though imo. Moving the goalposts and holding people accountable after the fact is for Sun readers though.
  • RichieTenenbaum 21 Oct 2012 16:37:26 2,226 posts
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    Geesh wrote:
    RichieTenenbaum wrote:
    I think it's obvious that a lot of the cuts aren't about the ressession but have been done for ideology's sake. Stuff like the NHS bill comes from a deep rooted belief that the private sector is always more efficient, whatever efficiency means.

    We have a really problem that so few of our politicians have had real jobs or experience in the real world. Working for an energy company gave me a healthy skepticism about the efficiency of private companies, working as a teacher gave me a really good grasp of the problems that teachers face And where our education system has gone wrong.

    We need polilitians who have skills and experience of things that aren't just in politics. Osborne can't sympathise or understand poverty or what it's like to earn not quite enough on a fundamental level, because it's never something he, or anyone he knows has had to go through. He doesn't know what it's like coming out of uni with a degree but with no contacts.
    So a technocrat government is something you'd support?
  • RichieTenenbaum 21 Oct 2012 16:38:24 2,226 posts
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    Geesh wrote:
    RichieTenenbaum wrote:
    I think it's obvious that a lot of the cuts aren't about the ressession but have been done for ideology's sake. Stuff like the NHS bill comes from a deep rooted belief that the private sector is always more efficient, whatever efficiency means.

    We have a really problem that so few of our politicians have had real jobs or experience in the real world. Working for an energy company gave me a healthy skepticism about the efficiency of private companies, working as a teacher gave me a really good grasp of the problems that teachers face And where our education system has gone wrong.

    We need polilitians who have skills and experience of things that aren't just in politics. Osborne can't sympathise or understand poverty or what it's like to earn not quite enough on a fundamental level, because it's never something he, or anyone he knows has had to go through. He doesn't know what it's like coming out of uni with a degree but with no contacts.
    So a technocrat government is something you'd support?
    I would have elected parties appointing people to roles (these people would not have to be elected )
  • RobTheBuilder 21 Oct 2012 16:38:44 6,521 posts
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    @elstoof I agree with the principle of what Richie is saying, it's easy to label the principle as wrong just because we had a few bad examples..!
  • RobTheBuilder 21 Oct 2012 16:47:27 6,521 posts
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    @Chopsen - Of course it is easy to point fingers. But it is pretty damn clear who the problems were caused by. No one said it would be easy, but it doesn't appear that anyone is trying to even start sorting it out. (Aside from Ed Millimetre's call to break up banks, but that's only part of the problem.)

    I love the example of one bank, who went bankrupt owing less money than they had paid out in bonuses the preceding year.

    Mostly pointing fingers is baseless, but in this case there is little other choice because those at the top appear to want to do nothing serious about it.
  • RobTheBuilder 21 Oct 2012 16:50:07 6,521 posts
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    @bitch_tits_zero_nine Yes, but unless you make people responsible for the actions they take you do nothing to remove those flaws from the system. Indeed it is the total lack of action that makes them endemic in the first place.

    Of course you have to tackle both the cause and the symptom, but (especially in cases like Hillsborough) those who have made catastrophically bad decisions (that have cost lives and defrauded the justice system) should be punished for them.
  • Deleted user 21 October 2012 16:52:15
    I guess you're right in that the problems are cultural and the unit of culture is the individual.
  • chopsen 21 Oct 2012 16:53:00 16,187 posts
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    RobTheBuilder wrote:
    but it doesn't appear that anyone is trying to even start sorting it out.
    Which is exactly not the case.
  • Khanivor 21 Oct 2012 16:53:46 41,057 posts
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    Perhaps the problem lies not in the politicians but in the civil servants who do all the actual work?
  • RobTheBuilder 21 Oct 2012 17:03:50 6,521 posts
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    @bitch_tits_zero_nine It's what happens with benefit claimants. Everyone slags off the 'scum' that sit and do no work, but no one wants to tackle the cause which is jobs that don't pay much, a system that makes the boost in earning from working a 38 hour week as little as £20, and a society that has brought them up to have no belief they can do better...
  • RobTheBuilder 21 Oct 2012 17:05:50 6,521 posts
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    @Chopsen Doesn't appear.

    From everything I have seen, there appears to be no one tackling the real issues, and truly holding those accountable for their actions. Libor maybe excepted. Maybe they are but people aren't hearing about it, but it sure doesn't seem like it.
  • chopsen 21 Oct 2012 17:11:26 16,187 posts
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    What are the "real issues" then?
  • Deleted user 21 October 2012 17:24:06
    RobTheBuilder wrote:
    @bitch_tits_zero_nine It's what happens with benefit claimants. Everyone slags off the 'scum' that sit and do no work, but no one wants to tackle the cause which is jobs that don't pay much, a system that makes the boost in earning from working a 38 hour week as little as £20, and a society that has brought them up to have no belief they can do better...
    yeah. cynical knee jerk propagandist misdirection. Always the way though, because it works.

    People in groups generally are that stupid.
  • elstoof 21 Oct 2012 17:44:45 8,055 posts
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    RobTheBuilder wrote:
    jobs that don't pay much, a system that makes the boost in earning from working a 38 hour week as little as £20, and a society that has brought them up to have no belief they can do better...
    Just because you can get almost as much handed to you in benefits as you could were you to work, doesn't really justify it. I'd rather work for £20 less than the hand out option if only for the sake of my pride, to get me out of the house and to meet people. Heaven knows, I may even gain experience, get a promotion and earn more money with an actual job.
  • WoodenSpoon 21 Oct 2012 19:02:38 12,294 posts
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    Anyone got some numbers on all these broken-britain scroungers who live off the dole and have no interest in finding work?

    Cos the last I heard the number of people who'd actually been out of work and claiming for more than a couple of years was tiny. I'd like to see the figures because tbh I feel as though the whole narrative's a tabloid/tory nonsense.
  • mal 21 Oct 2012 19:46:25 22,787 posts
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    http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/lab_lon_une_of_tot_une-labor-long-term-unemployment-total

    As I understand it, in this context, long-term unemployment refers to those claiming unemployment benefit for more than 12 months. I'd assume those unemployed for 2 years would be less than half that.

    According to this 27% of people who have been unemployed were unemployed for more than 12 months. Old data though - that's for 2001, and the ratio of long-term unemployed versus all unemployed is from 2003.

    According the the historical stats, those 2003 figures were the lowest for ten years - 1994 being the last maxima (and 1985 being slightly more before that). I'd guess therefore it's probably jumped up a little since 2003, as it unsurprisingly seems to be tied in with recessions.

    Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!

  • spamdangled 12 Nov 2012 10:53:15 27,421 posts
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    Ouch.

    Apparently they are asking for a special loan from central government and will be cutting every public service back the absolute minimum.

    They estimate it will take them 20 years before they have paid it all off.

    3DS: 4055-2781-2855 Xbox: spamdangled PSN: dark_morgan Wii U: Spamdangle Steam: spamdangled

  • MetalDog 12 Nov 2012 10:57:44 23,854 posts
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    I wonder if any of them will be taking a pay cut to help make up the money.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • Bremenacht 12 Nov 2012 11:59:31 19,207 posts
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    How completely fucking stupid. You'd think someones would be fired after something like that, assuming anyone in charge is remotely responsible, and that it wasn't some other chap who was in charge of that stuff weasel weasel payrise payrise etc etc

    I read this morning that City bonuses will be halved again next year, with more jobs going.
  • nickthegun 12 Nov 2012 12:10:04 60,951 posts
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    Bremenacht wrote:
    How completely fucking stupid. You'd think someones would be fired after something like that, assuming anyone in charge is remotely responsible
    This is BCC we are talking about; a council that has been consistantly been run by incompetant morons for ... well.. ever

    MetalDog wrote:
    I wonder if any of them will be taking a pay cut to help make up the money.
    That would have to be some pay cut.

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  • MetalDog 12 Nov 2012 12:19:35 23,854 posts
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    Personally I'd favour a complete pay cut in the form of a P45.
    Getting caught out treating some human beings as second class citizens and as a result slashing public services is the most complete failure of their purpose imaginable.

    -- boobs do nothing for me, I want moustaches and chest hair.

  • nickthegun 12 Nov 2012 12:33:35 60,951 posts
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    I used to live in and work for the home office in Birmingham and you always heard some horror stories coming out of the nearby council offices about some idiotic scheme that had failed.

    One of my favourites was affirmative action of using mentally handicapped people as greeters and receptionists in a number of drop in centers but, because no one could understand them on the phone and because they couldnít get to grips with the bureaucracy side of it, they needed a supervisor all day there with them. So there were, at one point, 20 people doing a job for 10 staff.

    Not that there is anything wrong with employing these people, but give them jobs the poor buggers can do. It doesnít help anyone to have frustrated people shouting down the phone at them.

    Edited by nickthegun at 12:34:21 12-11-2012

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    My man gives real loving that's why I call him Killer
    He's not a wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am, he's a thriller

  • mal 12 Nov 2012 13:09:17 22,787 posts
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    Out of interest, did we cover the ALS legal interpreter scandal in here back in March?

    Apparently a Justice Select Committee was set up to examine this case, and evidence is starting to come in. Seems interpreters are not happy that their pay was slashed and don't seem to impressed with this committee either and last week the boss of the firm (who conveniently left the company just before the committee was set up) blamed the interpreters for refusing to work (allegedly below the minimum wage in places, and apparently no longer being paid travel expenses). ALS is currently owned by Capita.

    Seems a complete mess to me, and I'm surprised I'd not come across it before, but perhaps I'm just inattentive. To be honest phrases like 'select committee' do tend to make me switch off.

    Edited by mal at 13:10:23 12-11-2012

    Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!

  • spamdangled 12 Nov 2012 13:13:18 27,421 posts
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    Other recent incidents include a man who was charged with perverting the course of justice being told he was accused of being a "pervert", and solicitors using Google Translate.
    Under different circumstances that would actually be pretty funny.

    3DS: 4055-2781-2855 Xbox: spamdangled PSN: dark_morgan Wii U: Spamdangle Steam: spamdangled

  • Bremenacht 12 Nov 2012 23:12:40 19,207 posts
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    mal wrote:
    Seems a complete mess to me, and I'm surprised I'd not come across it before, but perhaps I'm just inattentive. To be honest phrases like 'select committee' do tend to make me switch off.
    Private Eye! It was interesting reading about the guy who set it up. He'd be applauded by the Tories for being a successful entrepreneur. He setup a translation company from his bedroom, contracted work out to translators and before long ended up with a big fat contract from the government. There's more to it than that, but it's just as someone above said - privatisation is regarded as being innately good, and they'll keep contracting it out.
  • FWB 12 Nov 2012 23:19:32 45,106 posts
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    Why can't we get US style pandemonium when we have an election? I want to see nutters on the street shouting UK! UK! UK! UK!
  • X201 12 Nov 2012 23:23:21 15,679 posts
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    Keep the noise down old bean.
    There's a good fellow.
  • spamdangled 13 Nov 2012 17:48:04 27,421 posts
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    Under the new Ugandan Anti-homosexuality bill, any parent who does not report their lesbian daughter or gay son to the authorities will be fined up to USH 5m or jailed for up to three years.

    Why the fuck are we not hearing more about this disgusting country in Parliament? And how long will it take before the Church of England publicly denounces those Ugandan bishops who have dedicated their lives and use their affiliation with the Church of England to promote hatred and persecution?

    3DS: 4055-2781-2855 Xbox: spamdangled PSN: dark_morgan Wii U: Spamdangle Steam: spamdangled

  • kalel 13 Nov 2012 17:56:28 89,114 posts
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    I'm not sure what it has to do with our Parliament. It is something that has been addressed by the United Nations, which seems the more appropriate forum.

    Certainly needs to be a bigger deal than it currently is in that respect though.
  • chopsen 13 Nov 2012 18:26:46 16,187 posts
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    I shocked the Honourable Member for Ugandashire has not made a statement.
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