The UK General Politics Thread Page 55

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  • spamdangled 21 Oct 2012 02:06:26 27,269 posts
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    disusedgenius wrote:
    Aargh. wrote:
    Or we can spend less but then spend what we do on the right things, efficiently and then put policies in place that are designed to encourage the private sector.
    Well, I'm sure every government has the same idea. You'd be a bit worried if they had a sudden desire to spend money badly on something they didn't think was very good anyway.
    The biggest problem with political parties is that they keep putting people in positions that they aren't qualified to hold.

    Like George Osborne.

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  • RobTheBuilder 21 Oct 2012 02:06:28 6,521 posts
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    @Facepalm Labour won't be perfect, but give me them over what we have now anyday.

    One term of growth inducing spending, with careful efficiency would be ideal!
  • disusedgenius 21 Oct 2012 02:14:19 5,210 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    The biggest problem with political parties is that they keep putting people in positions that they aren't qualified to hold.

    Like George Osborne.
    Who would be qualified to be chancellor, in your eyes? Cable's the obvious one with an actual related qualification but who else is there? The thing is with politics being such a career move now is that Osbourne's qualifications only really need to be his skill as a politician - and your position in government is usually indicative of that!

    I do wonder how a more Germanic/autocratic approach would go down over here though. Generally I'd class us as generally too anti-intellectual for it to ever work.
  • disusedgenius 21 Oct 2012 02:17:29 5,210 posts
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    RobTheBuilder wrote:
    @Facepalm Labour won't be perfect, but give me them over what we have now anyday.
    I'm not so sure on that - Labour need to prove they've changed just as much as the Tories need(ed) to. They need to really convince us (well... me, at least!) that they aren't going to piss all the money away on middle-management and systems to continue to feel their apparent desire for information and control.

    Though Miliband has been making nice platitudes, I can't necessarily see anything which really convinces me otherwise just yet.
  • RobTheBuilder 21 Oct 2012 02:19:39 6,521 posts
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    @disusedgenius I'm not convinced either, but they are by far the lesser of two evils right now.

    Ideally (in theory) a Labour / Lib Dem coalition would be ideal. Labour principles with Cable putting sound economics behind their actions...

    Edited by RobTheBuilder at 02:21:20 21-10-2012
  • Moot_Point 21 Oct 2012 02:32:12 3,914 posts
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    @RobTheBuilder There would be no reason to have a coalition between Lab/Lib Dem because the Tories needed the Lib Dem support to gain power.

    Edited by Moot_Point at 04:44:28 21-10-2012

    ================================================================================

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  • spamdangled 21 Oct 2012 02:35:26 27,269 posts
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    @disusedgenius

    My choice would be Cable.

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  • spamdangled 21 Oct 2012 02:39:55 27,269 posts
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    RobTheBuilder wrote:
    @disusedgenius I'm not convinced either, but they are by far the lesser of two evils right now.

    Ideally (in theory) a Labour / Lib Dem coalition would be ideal. Labour principles with Cable putting sound economics behind their actions...
    There was a rather disturbing piece in the Indie on Sunday a couple of weeks back that there is actually a conspiracy going on that the Tries and the the Libs will enter into a permanent coalition (effectively a merger), and even if Labour get the most votes in the next hung parliament the Libs will "make the noises" to be seen to be negotiagting but will go with the Tories regardless. Supposedly this is being done without the knowledge or backing of the leadership of the Libs or the party as a whole (presumably because they know it would cause a huge upheaval).

    Edited by darkmorgado at 02:40:27 21-10-2012

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  • RobTheBuilder 21 Oct 2012 13:30:37 6,521 posts
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    Given how Lib Dem support has evaporated that might be the only way they will have much chance of any power. If Vince Cable defected to Labour that would make them instantly twice as votable.
  • RobTheBuilder 21 Oct 2012 13:36:20 6,521 posts
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    @EatMyCow ...the whole Tory strategy of making the deficit into a far far bigger issue than it actually was in order to 'justify' drastic cut backs to every public service and the dismantling of the NHS while allowing those who actually caused the recession to get off scot free.
  • Chopsen 21 Oct 2012 13:53:58 15,723 posts
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    Scot free? Really? I know this gets said so frequently that it gets accepted as fact, but it's not really completely true.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19297195

    But don't let stuff like that get in the way of a good conspiracy theory, eh
  • disusedgenius 21 Oct 2012 14:08:09 5,210 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    @disusedgenius

    My choice would be Cable.
    ...well obviously. Which is why I wondered if there's anyone else. Particularly any Tories, as they're the major party in the coalition.
  • RobTheBuilder 21 Oct 2012 14:15:52 6,521 posts
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    @Chopsen Mild punishment for one offence out of a stockpile of many many others. You could almost call it a scapegoat to hide the fact that no action was really taken over the real issues.

    Banks/investment groups caused the problem, they are the ones asking for a deficit cut, they are the ones profiting from the recession they caused, they are the ones holding back growth by restricting lending to businesses and mortgages (not talking about the old style dangerous ones either.). Etc.

    Also, calling everything a conspiracy theory is generally just a sign of someone who doesn't have a strong argument and wants to demean their opponent. I expect better from you.

    Edited by RobTheBuilder at 14:18:11 21-10-2012
  • RobTheBuilder 21 Oct 2012 14:17:04 6,521 posts
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    @disusedgenius I think persuading Cable to move to Labour would be the single smartest move Millimetre could make before the next election. The ONE politician who credibly called out what was going on would massively bolster their perception of being able to run the economy.

    It would also destroy most of what is left of LD support.

    Edited by RobTheBuilder at 14:17:20 21-10-2012
  • mal 21 Oct 2012 14:40:14 22,334 posts
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    I don't think I've ever voted positively in my life, and that's a shame. Before Labour came in, I thought they couldn't be as bad as the Tories, so I voted for them. Turns out that perhaps they weren't as bad in the same ways, but they were still terrible in different ways. If I've not voted to try to get someone out of office, then my vote has always been a protest vote.

    Perhaps it's just me, but I do think it's a shame that at no point during my adult lifetime have I been able to vote for something I believe in. Perhaps the odd occasion I've voted Lib Dem comes closest, although it turns out they're not nearly as liberal as I'd hoped they'd be.

    Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!

  • RichieTenenbaum 21 Oct 2012 14:44:39 2,181 posts
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    I think it's obvious that a lot of the cuts aren't about the ressession but have been done for ideology's sake. Stuff like the NHS bill comes from a deep rooted belief that the private sector is always more efficient, whatever efficiency means.

    We have a really problem that so few of our politicians have had real jobs or experience in the real world. Working for an energy company gave me a healthy skepticism about the efficiency of private companies, working as a teacher gave me a really good grasp of the problems that teachers face And where our education system has gone wrong.

    We need polilitians who have skills and experience of things that aren't just in politics. Osborne can't sympathise or understand poverty or what it's like to earn not quite enough on a fundamental level, because it's never something he, or anyone he knows has had to go through. He doesn't know what it's like coming out of uni with a degree but with no contacts.

    Edited by RichieTenenbaum at 14:46:15 21-10-2012
  • bitch_tits_zero_nine 21 Oct 2012 14:52:46 6,654 posts
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    I live in a Tory stronghold so it'd be pointless to vote, but I think Labour could be the lesser of two evils.

    Think with todays consensus based politics the only yardstick we have to base our political opinions on is rough perceptions of the personalities involved.

    Labour would get my vote.
  • Deleted user 21 October 2012 14:58:52
    localnotail wrote:
    Tens of thousands marching against "austerity" today. Miles and miles of ineffective outrage registration. Yet more fuck-ups from the most lame and pathetic UK government I've ever witnessed. Perhaps it was ever thus and there are just more ways for the shit to leak out now?
    They do just seem more shite though.

    I begin to wonder if I'm in a dream, scripted by Armando Iannucci.
    I'm totally out of the loop. Anyone bored enough to sum up what awful things have been happening recently to warrant the above?
  • MrDigital 21 Oct 2012 15:01:13 1,866 posts
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    RichieTenenbaum wrote:
    I think it's obvious that a lot of the cuts aren't about the ressession but have been done for ideology's sake. Stuff like the NHS bill comes from a deep rooted belief that the private sector is always more efficient, whatever efficiency means.

    We have a really problem that so few of our politicians have had real jobs or experience in the real world. Working for an energy company gave me a healthy skepticism about the efficiency of private companies, working as a teacher gave me a really good grasp of the problems that teachers face And where our education system has gone wrong.

    We need polilitians who have skills and experience of things that aren't just in politics. Osborne can't sympathise or understand poverty or what it's like to earn not quite enough on a fundamental level, because it's never something he, or anyone he knows has had to go through. He doesn't know what it's like coming out of uni with a degree but with no contacts.
    So a technocrat government is something you'd support?

    Formerly TheStylishHobo and Geesh.

  • elstoof 21 Oct 2012 15:04:45 6,610 posts
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    RichieTenenbaum wrote:
    We need polilitians who have skills and experience of things that aren't just in politics. Osborne can't sympathise or understand poverty or what it's like to earn not quite enough on a fundamental level, because it's never something he, or anyone he knows has had to go through. He doesn't know what it's like coming out of uni with a degree but with no contacts.
    Were either Brown or Darling such "men of the people"?
  • MrDigital 21 Oct 2012 15:11:18 1,866 posts
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    Darling's daughter is a friend of a friend, and apparently she is a massive pot-head.

    /off-topic

    Formerly TheStylishHobo and Geesh.

  • disusedgenius 21 Oct 2012 15:17:50 5,210 posts
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    I don't know about the whole 'they don't know what it's liek in the 'real world' thing, really. It's not like you're going to find someone who can relate to every experience everyone goes through - you really need to be able to filter people with the right level of empathy and understanding.

    You're not going to get a very representative selection on the nation with the voting system we have anyway as everything will end up averaging out. Maybe with a more national (rather than local) voting system you'd find that you'd start to get a wider range of people who actually make it though to becoming MPs. But then you end up substituting for another set of issues entirely.
  • bitch_tits_zero_nine 21 Oct 2012 15:23:11 6,654 posts
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    Yeah, One vote to make a decision on two opinions, national and local representation.

    Prefer a presidential system if I'm being hones.
  • disusedgenius 21 Oct 2012 15:26:45 5,210 posts
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    Well normally that issue is dealt with by having two chambers which are both elected - one local, one national. Considering the stalemate on the Lords we won't be having that any time soon, mind.
  • Chopsen 21 Oct 2012 16:10:28 15,723 posts
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    RobTheBuilder wrote:
    @Chopsen Mild punishment for one offence out of a stockpile of many many others. You could almost call it a scapegoat to hide the fact that no action was really taken over the real issues.

    Banks/investment groups caused the problem, they are the ones asking for a deficit cut, they are the ones profiting from the recession they caused, they are the ones holding back growth by restricting lending to businesses and mortgages (not talking about the old style dangerous ones either.). Etc.

    Also, calling everything a conspiracy theory is generally just a sign of someone who doesn't have a strong argument and wants to demean their opponent. I expect better from you.
    It was the the first example I found on a quick google, and wasn't meant to be definitive proof of anything. It was just to disprove the fact the idea that often gets quoted that "nothing" has been done. The Wheatley report (as it was the LIBOR story that was mentioned in my link) has been concluded and the recommendations have been accepted by the government, and criminal prosecutions may still happen, depending on the FSA or FCA or whoever it is that has the ball on this issue now. No, nobody was hung in public on the day that the news broke, but you know what? Things don't work like that.

    The stuff that went wrong since 2008 is broadly very simple (lots of people spent money they didn't have) though proving what was *criminally* wrong and punishing those that broke the law is a very different thing from people being *incompetent* and suffering the consequence of that. And yes, lots of people have lost their jobs and their own money who worked in the banking sector. Yes, very few of them are now destitute living on the streets and haven't been shot at dawn, but that's how things are.

    I am not calling anything a conspiracy theory. Those who are saying that "The Bankers" are "Getting Away With It" are the ones waving the pointy finger of conspiracy theory about. What I believe is that an absolute clusterfuck happened, some people no doubt acted immorally, some incompetently, some illegally. Working out who did what and which group they belong in is not an easy task, and anybody who thinks it is is just embarrassing themselves and undermining the call to hold people to account.

    Of course, for lots of people it's easy to be an armchair revolutionary and blame problems they don't fully understand on people they can't name.

    Edited by Chopsen at 16:14:32 21-10-2012
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