The UK General Politics Thread Page 50

  • Page

    of 147 First / Last

  • Deleted user 15 October 2012 15:50:15
    No one has a definite answer. There are a shit ton of questions, like the above, that need to be answered first. The thought of leaving the union and stumbling our way forward does not fill me with pride.
  • Moot_Point 15 Oct 2012 15:51:18 3,488 posts
    Seen 6 hours ago
    Registered 2 years ago
    mcmonkeyplc wrote:
    Out of one union into the European Union.
    Like Ireland, eh? lol

    ================================================================================

    mowgli wrote: I can't believe this is still going. I'm far too hungover for this. I did not poop on a chair lol!

  • MrDigital 15 Oct 2012 18:11:02 1,866 posts
    Seen 2 weeks ago
    Registered 4 years ago
    Doubt it's going to happen anyway. According to the recent polls, only 27% want independence now. This may be temporarily low due to The Olympics, but even before The Olympics is still stood at around 37%. Then again, the SNP pulled off quite a shocker in the last election which totally blew apart the polls, so who knows...

    In any case, not much is going to change. It's going to be okay with independence, okay without independence, and I think people who say otherwise are either deluded or doomsayers. All that will really change is that we'll have a slightly more left wing government, which I guess would be nicer but no huge upheaval.

    Formerly TheStylishHobo and Geesh.

  • Tom_Servo 15 Oct 2012 18:12:50 15,484 posts
    Seen 3 hours ago
    Registered 3 years ago
    It'll be interesting to see the impact of the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow in 2014 too, since you've brought the possible impact of the London Olympics. No doubt the SNP will be hoping it causes a surge in support.
  • MrDigital 15 Oct 2012 18:25:59 1,866 posts
    Seen 2 weeks ago
    Registered 4 years ago
    Yeah, they were very interested in having the referendum at that exact time. Even gave up the Devo-Max question to get the referendum at the 2014 time.

    Formerly TheStylishHobo and Geesh.

  • mal 15 Oct 2012 18:42:35 21,928 posts
    Seen 9 hours ago
    Registered 12 years ago
    Have they clarified the issue of the ownership of what's left under the north sea yet?

    Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!

  • Deleted user 15 October 2012 18:46:55
    Tom_Servo wrote:
    It'll be interesting to see the impact of the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow in 2014 too, since you've brought the possible impact of the London Olympics. No doubt the SNP will be hoping it causes a surge in support.
    they have pretty much nothing but timing on their side. Games and anniversary is, they hope, enough.
  • DaM 15 Oct 2012 19:03:29 12,600 posts
    Seen 11 hours ago
    Registered 12 years ago
    Tom_Servo wrote:
    It'll be interesting to see the impact of the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow in 2014 too, since you've brought the possible impact of the London Olympics. No doubt the SNP will be hoping it causes a surge in support.
    Don't forget the Ryder Cup at Gleneagles and the 700th anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn - waiting till 2014 is not an accident!

    The SNP never thought they would be here, hence there are still lots of unanswered questions. The voting system for the Scottish Parliament was purposefully designed so that it was impossible for one party to get a majority - either to promote cross-party cooperation or to prevent the SNP getting independence - take your pick :)

    I'm not sure if this gets covered much down south, but a vote at Parliament elections is not a vote for independence, especially at the last election. It was recognition of the fact that they actually did a not bad job of running the country. Labour are a complete mess in Scotland, and the Tories are not really an option. Think of the SNP as a more credible Lib Dems.
  • ResidentKnievel 15 Oct 2012 19:53:36 5,867 posts
    Seen 7 hours ago
    Registered 7 years ago
    I don't want Scotland to have independence as it'll shift the whole political spectrum in the UK slightly to the right, I've not liked my experiences of right wing politics here in England.

    If I was Scottish I'd want independence as it'd allow for a much more representative government.

    [code]Armoured_Bear wrote:
    Unlike yourself, I don't have a weird obsession with any platform.[/code]

  • alexc7496 15 Oct 2012 20:15:46 1,777 posts
    Seen 4 days ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    Who is fighting the 'No' campaign?

    Apart from every safe seat Scottish MP I heard Brown was gonna lead it. Prob one thing most MP's across all parties agree on.
  • mal 15 Oct 2012 20:16:00 21,928 posts
    Seen 9 hours ago
    Registered 12 years ago
    Aargh. wrote:
    Would Scotland need to be accepted as a member of the EU to be able avoid all the border checks etc?
    Yes. Current rules seem to mean that if it joined the EU, it'd need to sign up to the Schengen agreement, as only the UK and Ireland have exemptions from it. Not that it makes a huge amount of sense - presumably Scotland (and England) would need to build border checkpoints (anyway), so the only savings they could make it not having to check those people flying in from the rest of the EU directly to Scottish airports.

    Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!

  • Rusty_M 15 Oct 2012 22:32:20 4,344 posts
    Seen 6 hours ago
    Registered 7 years ago
    I think becoming independent could be really awkward and unpredictable. I don't fancy the idea myself.

    There are far too many questions if we are to become independent.

    Border checks? Armed forces? North Sea Oil? Orkney? Euro? How much of the bank bailout would become Scottish debt? It's not like HBOS and RBS were small, simple companies.

    The world is going mad. Me? I'm doing fine.

  • DaM 15 Oct 2012 22:45:49 12,600 posts
    Seen 11 hours ago
    Registered 12 years ago
    These are some of the more easily answered questions:
    Border checks - no

    Armed forces - we'd negotiate a share of what there is based on population/tax input. And get rid of trident from Faslane.

    North Sea oil - most of it is in "Scottish territorial waters as defined by the UN.

    Orkney - interesting, if they stayed with UK, then lots of oil in their waters (I think)

    National Debt - Scotland would inherit a share of it (prob 10% ish).

    Euro - SNP have done a quiet u-turn on this :) They seem to assume we could just use the pound, and have input at the Bank of England, but this hasn't been confirmed by anyone.

    BUT - before a vote for Yes, none of these can be negotiated - this would happen after a Yes vote, so any solutions are all made up.

    There are lots more questions that haven't really come up - pensions, trade with England (VAT?), DVLA - there are just so many areas in which we are so tightly entwined. Would NATO let us in if we banned nukes? Where would they go?

    The problem is for the No campaign is that the Yes campaign has a very positive message. The No campaign is disunited - Labour, Tories and Lib Dems, all of them hammered at the last election, squabbling and bickering as usual. They all want the same thing, but can't bear to be on the same stage together. Their message is negative. They have to get together and come up with a positive alternative (devomax) instead of just sniping and scorning at the SNP.
  • disusedgenius 15 Oct 2012 22:55:56 5,140 posts
    Seen 7 hours ago
    Registered 6 years ago
    What makes you say 10%ish, out of interest?
  • Deleted user 15 October 2012 23:01:30
    Based on size of population.
  • FWB 15 Oct 2012 23:03:57 41,893 posts
    Seen 6 hours ago
    Registered 12 years ago
    Bet other countries in the EU with regions looking for independence wouldn't make it easy for Scotland to join.
  • MrDigital 15 Oct 2012 23:14:36 1,866 posts
    Seen 2 weeks ago
    Registered 4 years ago
    On that topic, Spain have been facing the possibility of Catalonia becoming independent more and more. There have been marches which quite literally dwarf any Scottish marches for independence. And if you look at the polls, they are far more in favour of independence than Scotland is.

    Despite this, the Spanish government has refused Catalonia a referendum, but it is going ahead nonetheless. It will be interesting to see what happens here. I don't think most people would have seen this coming and the media barely touches on it, but it could be a lot more likely than Scottish independence.

    Also interesting to see that where independence is more popular, a referendum has been refused, whereas the UK government didn't fight hard at all against a referendum, maybe because they feel it's so unlikely to pass?

    Formerly TheStylishHobo and Geesh.

  • FWB 15 Oct 2012 23:21:20 41,893 posts
    Seen 6 hours ago
    Registered 12 years ago
    Doesn't matter what they do in Catalonia. Sovereignty remains in Madrid. Until they agree they're going no where.

    Don't think Scotland will leave. The SNP has the support it is does because they're not Labour, Libs or Conservatives. Doesn't mean their policy of independence is supported. Not really bothered if Scotland leaves. Downside is that UK politics will move to the right though. All those inbred country fucks and dodgy boundaries.
  • Moot_Point 15 Oct 2012 23:53:12 3,488 posts
    Seen 6 hours ago
    Registered 2 years ago
    I think it is funny that Scotland are fighting for independence, but will end up joining the EU. Oh the irony!

    ================================================================================

    mowgli wrote: I can't believe this is still going. I'm far too hungover for this. I did not poop on a chair lol!

  • MightyMouse 16 Oct 2012 00:13:16 1,091 posts
    Seen 4 hours ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    Scotland could be fine on its own, lots of small countries have built strong economies from worse positions. Imo Salmond doesn't really seem like the guy to build the Scottish economy - he wanted to emulate Ireland and Iceland with emphasis on banking. However, if they don't vote for independence now, it won't happen for another 25 years. And whether that's good for Scotland will be mostly out of their control.
  • Khanivor 16 Oct 2012 01:12:36 39,862 posts
    Seen 2 hours ago
    Registered 12 years ago
    The possibility of Salmond of having full authority over Scotland is reason enough on its own to vote no.
  • mal 16 Oct 2012 12:27:54 21,928 posts
    Seen 9 hours ago
    Registered 12 years ago
    DaM wrote:
    These are some of the more easily answered questions:
    Border checks - no
    How do you mean? No border checks? That would compromise England if Scotland also joined the Schengen area. Or do you mean 'no change'? That would be the most sensible outcome as far as I can tell, but it would mean the EU changing the rules on new joiners so Scotland didn't have to sign up to Schengen. Hopefully that wouldn't be a problem politically, in fact it might be useful to MEPs to be able to say that perhaps new joiners to the EU like those east of Poland don't actually have to implement Schengen, but I dunno.
    BUT - before a vote for Yes, none of these can be negotiated - this would happen after a Yes vote, so any solutions are all made up.

    There are lots more questions that haven't really come up - pensions, trade with England (VAT?), DVLA - there are just so many areas in which we are so tightly entwined. Would NATO let us in if we banned nukes? Where would they go?
    Really? I'd have (probably naively) thought that anything the electorate needed to know to decide whether this was a good idea or not before they had to vote on it, but perhaps that just shows that I'm not in politics. Still, surely that means the No party can just campaign a negative campaign of uncertainty and doubt which the Yes campaign can't counter?

    Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!

  • brokenkey 16 Oct 2012 12:41:57 6,791 posts
    Seen 9 hours ago
    Registered 12 years ago
    Kiss goodbye universal post delivery in Scotland if they all vote yes.

    3DS 3497-0122-1484
    XBL/PSN/NNID: CptnBrokenkey

  • DaM 16 Oct 2012 12:51:08 12,600 posts
    Seen 11 hours ago
    Registered 12 years ago
    mal wrote:
    DaM wrote:
    These are some of the more easily answered questions:
    Border checks - no
    How do you mean? No border checks? That would compromise England if Scotland also joined the Schengen area. Or do you mean 'no change'? That would be the most sensible outcome as far as I can tell, but it would mean the EU changing the rules on new joiners so Scotland didn't have to sign up to Schengen. Hopefully that wouldn't be a problem politically, in fact it might be useful to MEPs to be able to say that perhaps new joiners to the EU like those east of Poland don't actually have to implement Schengen, but I dunno.
    BUT - before a vote for Yes, none of these can be negotiated - this would happen after a Yes vote, so any solutions are all made up.

    There are lots more questions that haven't really come up - pensions, trade with England (VAT?), DVLA - there are just so many areas in which we are so tightly entwined. Would NATO let us in if we banned nukes? Where would they go?
    Really? I'd have (probably naively) thought that anything the electorate needed to know to decide whether this was a good idea or not before they had to vote on it, but perhaps that just shows that I'm not in politics. Still, surely that means the No party can just campaign a negative campaign of uncertainty and doubt which the Yes campaign can't counter?
    Discussion of all these things will only occur in negotiations that would take place after a Yes vote. Anything said before is just made up - what the SNP would want, but no guarantee they would get.

    SNP say there will be no border checks, but who says England would erect a big fence with border patrols and passport checks?

    As for joining the EU...we're already in it, and adhere to all the rules and regulations, so nothing would change - presuming they let us in without joining the Euro. What is ironic is that monetary issues eg interest rates would be controlled by the Bank of England, where we would have little or no say. So instead of having MPs and influence at Westminster, we would have zero input on the control of our currency. Independence would bring less control not more.
  • mal 16 Oct 2012 12:56:31 21,928 posts
    Seen 9 hours ago
    Registered 12 years ago
    Oh, I thought Scotland would have to reapply to rejoin the EU. Shows what you get for getting your news from Newsnight ;)

    Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!

  • alexc7496 16 Oct 2012 12:57:25 1,777 posts
    Seen 4 days ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    Does this mean that Scotland would have to increase their taxes if they got a 'Yes' vote to pay for Glasgow's welfare dependency that will no longer be paid for by the whole of the UK?

    Also being that in Scotland you can get access to free higher education as well as free prescriptions that the English/Welsh/NI tax payer pays towards but gets little reward maybe it isn't all bad for England?
  • Chopsen 16 Oct 2012 12:58:38 15,105 posts
    Seen 11 hours ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    Being "in the EU" because you're a member of the UK (so you're not in the EU as a member state) and being in the EU as a member state are different things, though, no?

    Also:

    SNP say there will be no border checks, but who says England would erect a big fence with border patrols and passport checks?
    Inevitably they would if Scotland was forced to sign up to Schengen.
  • DaM 16 Oct 2012 13:09:13 12,600 posts
    Seen 11 hours ago
    Registered 12 years ago
    alexc7496 wrote:
    Does this mean that Scotland would have to increase their taxes if they got a 'Yes' vote to pay for Glasgow's welfare dependency that will no longer be paid for by the whole of the UK?

    Also being that in Scotland you can get access to free higher education as well as free prescriptions that the English/Welsh/NI tax payer pays towards but gets little reward maybe it isn't all bad for England?
    Scotland is tax neutral (if you take oil revenues into consideration) - it gives roughly what it gets back (according to the UK gov), so it shouldn't be an issue. Every other part of the UK is subsidised by London and the South East.

    The EU question is interesting. The EU seem to say informally that it shouldn't be an issue (as we already meet all the entry requirements). But the Scottish Gov received legal advice on this issue, and refuse to release it under FOI. They are being dragged through the courts at taxpayers expense to release it.

    Someone mentioned Spain would want to block it, but I think informally they say they don't have an issue. Salmond's probably been smoozing them.
  • alexc7496 16 Oct 2012 13:16:31 1,777 posts
    Seen 4 days ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    Good points. I am English but I wouldn't want to see Scotland go its own way. I kind of feel that's what makes the UK great, that we have 4 x nations feeding into one and at certain times and situations we are British and others we are English, Scottish, NI or Welsh and we have the usual banter between nations but when push comes to shove we are always there for each other.

    That being said I do hate the fact that you have Scottish MP's voting on decisions that largely effect England yet their constituencies are based in Scotland and Scottish parliament has the right to push through a lot of its own laws such as the higher education for example yet laws were passed through Westminster agreeing to the raising of fees for English Universities. I know that is another subject all together but is a fair point.
  • Page

    of 147 First / Last

Log in or register to reply