No one has a definite answer. There are a shit ton of questions, like the above, that need to be answered first. The thought of leaving the union and stumbling our way forward does not fill me with pride.
Pissy pants.
The UK General Politics Thread • Page 50
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mowgli 31,928 posts
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Moot_Point 1,071 posts
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Registered 8 months agomcmonkeyplc wrote:
Like Ireland, eh? lol
Out of one union into the European Union.mowgli wrote: I fucking love willies.
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MrDigital 1,658 posts
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Registered 3 years agoDoubt it's going to happen anyway. According to the recent polls, only 27% want independence now. This may be temporarily low due to The Olympics, but even before The Olympics is still stood at around 37%. Then again, the SNP pulled off quite a shocker in the last election which totally blew apart the polls, so who knows...
In any case, not much is going to change. It's going to be okay with independence, okay without independence, and I think people who say otherwise are either deluded or doomsayers. All that will really change is that we'll have a slightly more left wing government, which I guess would be nicer but no huge upheaval. -
Tom_Servo 13,224 posts
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Registered 3 years agoIt'll be interesting to see the impact of the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow in 2014 too, since you've brought the possible impact of the London Olympics. No doubt the SNP will be hoping it causes a surge in support. -
MrDigital 1,658 posts
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Registered 3 years agoYeah, they were very interested in having the referendum at that exact time. Even gave up the Devo-Max question to get the referendum at the 2014 time. -
mal 20,523 posts
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Registered 11 years agoHave they clarified the issue of the ownership of what's left under the north sea yet?Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!
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mowgli 31,928 posts
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Registered 7 years agoTom_Servo wrote:
they have pretty much nothing but timing on their side. Games and anniversary is, they hope, enough.
It'll be interesting to see the impact of the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow in 2014 too, since you've brought the possible impact of the London Olympics. No doubt the SNP will be hoping it causes a surge in support.Pissy pants.
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DaM 11,757 posts
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Registered 11 years agoTom_Servo wrote:
Don't forget the Ryder Cup at Gleneagles and the 700th anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn - waiting till 2014 is not an accident!
It'll be interesting to see the impact of the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow in 2014 too, since you've brought the possible impact of the London Olympics. No doubt the SNP will be hoping it causes a surge in support.
The SNP never thought they would be here, hence there are still lots of unanswered questions. The voting system for the Scottish Parliament was purposefully designed so that it was impossible for one party to get a majority - either to promote cross-party cooperation or to prevent the SNP getting independence - take your pick.gif)
I'm not sure if this gets covered much down south, but a vote at Parliament elections is not a vote for independence, especially at the last election. It was recognition of the fact that they actually did a not bad job of running the country. Labour are a complete mess in Scotland, and the Tories are not really an option. Think of the SNP as a more credible Lib Dems. -
ResidentKnievel 5,396 posts
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Registered 6 years agoI don't want Scotland to have independence as it'll shift the whole political spectrum in the UK slightly to the right, I've not liked my experiences of right wing politics here in England.
If I was Scottish I'd want independence as it'd allow for a much more representative government.morriss wrote: My actual real opinion is very insulting and unhelpful. -
alexc7496 1,766 posts
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Registered 7 years agoWho is fighting the 'No' campaign?
Apart from every safe seat Scottish MP I heard Brown was gonna lead it. Prob one thing most MP's across all parties agree on. -
mal 20,523 posts
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Registered 11 years agoAargh. wrote:
Yes. Current rules seem to mean that if it joined the EU, it'd need to sign up to the Schengen agreement, as only the UK and Ireland have exemptions from it. Not that it makes a huge amount of sense - presumably Scotland (and England) would need to build border checkpoints (anyway), so the only savings they could make it not having to check those people flying in from the rest of the EU directly to Scottish airports.
Would Scotland need to be accepted as a member of the EU to be able avoid all the border checks etc?Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!
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Rusty_M 3,621 posts
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Registered 6 years agoI think becoming independent could be really awkward and unpredictable. I don't fancy the idea myself.
There are far too many questions if we are to become independent.
Border checks? Armed forces? North Sea Oil? Orkney? Euro? How much of the bank bailout would become Scottish debt? It's not like HBOS and RBS were small, simple companies.The world is going mad. Me? I'm doing fine.
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DaM 11,757 posts
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Registered 11 years agoThese are some of the more easily answered questions:
Border checks - no
Armed forces - we'd negotiate a share of what there is based on population/tax input. And get rid of trident from Faslane.
North Sea oil - most of it is in "Scottish territorial waters as defined by the UN.
Orkney - interesting, if they stayed with UK, then lots of oil in their waters (I think)
National Debt - Scotland would inherit a share of it (prob 10% ish).
Euro - SNP have done a quiet u-turn on this They seem to assume we could just use the pound, and have input at the Bank of England, but this hasn't been confirmed by anyone.
BUT - before a vote for Yes, none of these can be negotiated - this would happen after a Yes vote, so any solutions are all made up.
There are lots more questions that haven't really come up - pensions, trade with England (VAT?), DVLA - there are just so many areas in which we are so tightly entwined. Would NATO let us in if we banned nukes? Where would they go?
The problem is for the No campaign is that the Yes campaign has a very positive message. The No campaign is disunited - Labour, Tories and Lib Dems, all of them hammered at the last election, squabbling and bickering as usual. They all want the same thing, but can't bear to be on the same stage together. Their message is negative. They have to get together and come up with a positive alternative (devomax) instead of just sniping and scorning at the SNP. -
disusedgenius 4,848 posts
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Registered 6 years agoWhat makes you say 10%ish, out of interest? -
Aargh. 11,183 posts
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Registered 2 years agoBased on size of population.After chasing sunsets one of life's simple joy is playing with the boys
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FWB 39,099 posts
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Registered 11 years agoBet other countries in the EU with regions looking for independence wouldn't make it easy for Scotland to join. -
MrDigital 1,658 posts
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Registered 3 years agoOn that topic, Spain have been facing the possibility of Catalonia becoming independent more and more. There have been marches which quite literally dwarf any Scottish marches for independence. And if you look at the polls, they are far more in favour of independence than Scotland is.
Despite this, the Spanish government has refused Catalonia a referendum, but it is going ahead nonetheless. It will be interesting to see what happens here. I don't think most people would have seen this coming and the media barely touches on it, but it could be a lot more likely than Scottish independence.
Also interesting to see that where independence is more popular, a referendum has been refused, whereas the UK government didn't fight hard at all against a referendum, maybe because they feel it's so unlikely to pass? -
FWB 39,099 posts
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Registered 11 years agoDoesn't matter what they do in Catalonia. Sovereignty remains in Madrid. Until they agree they're going no where.
Don't think Scotland will leave. The SNP has the support it is does because they're not Labour, Libs or Conservatives. Doesn't mean their policy of independence is supported. Not really bothered if Scotland leaves. Downside is that UK politics will move to the right though. All those inbred country fucks and dodgy boundaries. -
Moot_Point 1,071 posts
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Registered 8 months agoI think it is funny that Scotland are fighting for independence, but will end up joining the EU. Oh the irony!mowgli wrote: I fucking love willies.
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MightyMouse 999 posts
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Registered 7 years agoScotland could be fine on its own, lots of small countries have built strong economies from worse positions. Imo Salmond doesn't really seem like the guy to build the Scottish economy - he wanted to emulate Ireland and Iceland with emphasis on banking. However, if they don't vote for independence now, it won't happen for another 25 years. And whether that's good for Scotland will be mostly out of their control. -
Khanivor 38,681 posts
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Registered 11 years agoThe possibility of Salmond of having full authority over Scotland is reason enough on its own to vote no. -
mal 20,523 posts
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Registered 11 years agoDaM wrote:
How do you mean? No border checks? That would compromise England if Scotland also joined the Schengen area. Or do you mean 'no change'? That would be the most sensible outcome as far as I can tell, but it would mean the EU changing the rules on new joiners so Scotland didn't have to sign up to Schengen. Hopefully that wouldn't be a problem politically, in fact it might be useful to MEPs to be able to say that perhaps new joiners to the EU like those east of Poland don't actually have to implement Schengen, but I dunno.
These are some of the more easily answered questions:
Border checks - noBUT - before a vote for Yes, none of these can be negotiated - this would happen after a Yes vote, so any solutions are all made up.
Really? I'd have (probably naively) thought that anything the electorate needed to know to decide whether this was a good idea or not before they had to vote on it, but perhaps that just shows that I'm not in politics. Still, surely that means the No party can just campaign a negative campaign of uncertainty and doubt which the Yes campaign can't counter?
There are lots more questions that haven't really come up - pensions, trade with England (VAT?), DVLA - there are just so many areas in which we are so tightly entwined. Would NATO let us in if we banned nukes? Where would they go?Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!
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brokenkey 6,317 posts
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Registered 11 years agoKiss goodbye universal post delivery in Scotland if they all vote yes. -
DaM 11,757 posts
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Registered 11 years agomal wrote:
Discussion of all these things will only occur in negotiations that would take place after a Yes vote. Anything said before is just made up - what the SNP would want, but no guarantee they would get.DaM wrote:
How do you mean? No border checks? That would compromise England if Scotland also joined the Schengen area. Or do you mean 'no change'? That would be the most sensible outcome as far as I can tell, but it would mean the EU changing the rules on new joiners so Scotland didn't have to sign up to Schengen. Hopefully that wouldn't be a problem politically, in fact it might be useful to MEPs to be able to say that perhaps new joiners to the EU like those east of Poland don't actually have to implement Schengen, but I dunno.
These are some of the more easily answered questions:
Border checks - noBUT - before a vote for Yes, none of these can be negotiated - this would happen after a Yes vote, so any solutions are all made up.
Really? I'd have (probably naively) thought that anything the electorate needed to know to decide whether this was a good idea or not before they had to vote on it, but perhaps that just shows that I'm not in politics. Still, surely that means the No party can just campaign a negative campaign of uncertainty and doubt which the Yes campaign can't counter?
There are lots more questions that haven't really come up - pensions, trade with England (VAT?), DVLA - there are just so many areas in which we are so tightly entwined. Would NATO let us in if we banned nukes? Where would they go?
SNP say there will be no border checks, but who says England would erect a big fence with border patrols and passport checks?
As for joining the EU...we're already in it, and adhere to all the rules and regulations, so nothing would change - presuming they let us in without joining the Euro. What is ironic is that monetary issues eg interest rates would be controlled by the Bank of England, where we would have little or no say. So instead of having MPs and influence at Westminster, we would have zero input on the control of our currency. Independence would bring less control not more. -
mal 20,523 posts
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Registered 11 years agoOh, I thought Scotland would have to reapply to rejoin the EU. Shows what you get for getting your news from Newsnight
Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!
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alexc7496 1,766 posts
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Registered 7 years agoDoes this mean that Scotland would have to increase their taxes if they got a 'Yes' vote to pay for Glasgow's welfare dependency that will no longer be paid for by the whole of the UK?
Also being that in Scotland you can get access to free higher education as well as free prescriptions that the English/Welsh/NI tax payer pays towards but gets little reward maybe it isn't all bad for England? -
Chopsen 13,727 posts
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Registered 8 years agoBeing "in the EU" because you're a member of the UK (so you're not in the EU as a member state) and being in the EU as a member state are different things, though, no?
Also:
SNP say there will be no border checks, but who says England would erect a big fence with border patrols and passport checks?
Inevitably they would if Scotland was forced to sign up to Schengen.Thanks for expressing interest in my signature!
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DaM 11,757 posts
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Registered 11 years agoalexc7496 wrote:
Scotland is tax neutral (if you take oil revenues into consideration) - it gives roughly what it gets back (according to the UK gov), so it shouldn't be an issue. Every other part of the UK is subsidised by London and the South East.
Does this mean that Scotland would have to increase their taxes if they got a 'Yes' vote to pay for Glasgow's welfare dependency that will no longer be paid for by the whole of the UK?
Also being that in Scotland you can get access to free higher education as well as free prescriptions that the English/Welsh/NI tax payer pays towards but gets little reward maybe it isn't all bad for England?
The EU question is interesting. The EU seem to say informally that it shouldn't be an issue (as we already meet all the entry requirements). But the Scottish Gov received legal advice on this issue, and refuse to release it under FOI. They are being dragged through the courts at taxpayers expense to release it.
Someone mentioned Spain would want to block it, but I think informally they say they don't have an issue. Salmond's probably been smoozing them. -
Good points. I am English but I wouldn't want to see Scotland go its own way. I kind of feel that's what makes the UK great, that we have 4 x nations feeding into one and at certain times and situations we are British and others we are English, Scottish, NI or Welsh and we have the usual banter between nations but when push comes to shove we are always there for each other.
That being said I do hate the fact that you have Scottish MP's voting on decisions that largely effect England yet their constituencies are based in Scotland and Scottish parliament has the right to push through a lot of its own laws such as the higher education for example yet laws were passed through Westminster agreeing to the raising of fees for English Universities. I know that is another subject all together but is a fair point. -
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