The UK General Politics Thread Page 49

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  • disusedgenius 12 Oct 2012 14:47:54 5,528 posts
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    It was fine as a story when it actually happened. Seems more than a little drawn out now and just has that bloodlust feel about it.
  • Tom_Servo 15 Oct 2012 13:59:33 18,083 posts
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    The Scottish independence referendum is on

    The agreement, struck in Edinburgh, has paved the way for a vote in autumn 2014, with a single Yes/No question on Scotland leaving the UK.

    It will also allow 16 and 17-year-olds to take part in the ballot.


    Guess I'm going to have to finally decide how I feel about independence, then. I really don't know about the economics of it but - and I think I've said this before - I think you could make a decent argument that the political culture is different enough to justify Scotland being an independent country. This, for example.

    The economic factors have to take precedence though. Not much point in being independent if we end up bust in 5-10 years. I thought a "devo max" option would be on the referendum, actually. Quite surprised it isn't.
  • RedSparrows 15 Oct 2012 14:02:31 23,882 posts
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    Political devolution isn't the whole picture either: political culture at the moment is always in relation to England/UK, and reacts/acts accordingly. If I were Scottish I think I'd be considering the cultural and emotional feel of it as much as anything.

    As an English Brit, I'd be sad if Scotland left the union. Why? I don't know.

    I don't really think it'd change that much for most people, other than intangible pride/loss. Unless the economics fucks up.
  • Deleted user 15 October 2012 14:09:28
    What about it disgusts you?
  • chopsen 15 Oct 2012 14:20:00 16,209 posts
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    I suspect is that it's easier for a local assembly to play the good guy and try to protect cuts locally, as they know that ultimately the balancing of the books happens higher up. It'll be a different picture I'd imagine if then genuinely had to take complete responsibility for the economic consequences of their action. Or they'd end up like Greece.

    Cow: you know, you can just vote for a different party. You don't have to change country just because you don't like the current political climate.
  • chopsen 15 Oct 2012 14:24:26 16,209 posts
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    Are you?
  • RyanDS 15 Oct 2012 14:26:30 9,732 posts
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    EatMyCow wrote:
    If I was scottish I'd vote for devolution in an instant, as UK politics disgusts me. It couldn't be much worse.
    Well at least it would resolve the West Lothian question.
  • Deleted user 15 October 2012 14:27:54
    How does independence give Scotland money? It's not like they're a hotbed of industry and service industries that England is stealing off.
  • mcmonkeyplc 15 Oct 2012 14:28:46 39,515 posts
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    Out of one union into the European Union.

    Either way we will still be in a union with Scotland. Just on a different scale.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • RyanDS 15 Oct 2012 14:31:19 9,732 posts
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    Aargh. wrote:
    How does independence give Scotland money? It's not like they're a hotbed of industry and service industries that England is stealing off.
    In theory oil.

    However in practice those oil producing areas will secede and stick with the UK.
  • TheSaint 15 Oct 2012 14:42:17 14,717 posts
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    Aargh. wrote:
    How does independence give Scotland money? It's not like they're a hotbed of industry and service industries that England is stealing off.
    They are the centre of the batter and weird orange soft drink industries.
  • X201 15 Oct 2012 14:42:22 15,697 posts
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    RyanDS wrote:
    Aargh. wrote:
    How does independence give Scotland money? It's not like they're a hotbed of industry and service industries that England is stealing off.
    In theory oil.

    However in practice those oil producing areas will secede and stick with the UK.
    The other one that they bleat on about is Green electricity, despite that fact that they won't actually earn much money from the contract. As the majority apparently goes to the companies.
  • Deleted user 15 October 2012 14:44:28
    That mean Scotland will pay back the bailout money that went to their banks if they get the oil?

    The oil levels are falling rapidly from those fields and most of the revenue goes to London based companies. It's not going to keep them full of whiskey and haggis for long.

    Edited by Aargh. at 14:46:29 15-10-2012
  • DaM 15 Oct 2012 14:46:22 13,444 posts
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    mcmonkeyplc wrote:
    Out of one union into the European Union.

    Either way we will still be in a union with Scotland. Just on a different scale.
    Do you think that the rump UK might vote to leave the EU in the future referendum promised by Cameron?
  • Deleted user 15 October 2012 14:48:40
    If Scotland get independence, does that mean they are no longer part of Great Britain at all?

    In which case, do I get to hate Andy Murray without being told I'm a spoil sport scrooge?
  • Deleted user 15 October 2012 14:52:35
    Would it mean all Scottish mps would have to leave Westminster?
  • mal 15 Oct 2012 14:53:17 22,793 posts
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    The political culture amongst London's voters is quite different to the surrounding country too (which ironically, it mostly made up of people who work in London). Would be quite amusing if all those commuters had to go through passport control each morning and night.

    Cubby didn't know how to turn off sigs!

  • mcmonkeyplc 15 Oct 2012 15:03:25 39,515 posts
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    I'm all for London being independent. :)

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • Deleted user 15 October 2012 15:04:56
    Manchester United
  • Deleted user 15 October 2012 15:09:05
    Not convinced by independence yet, and I get the feeling salmond is losing faith in the idea.
  • oceanmotion 15 Oct 2012 15:26:35 16,088 posts
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    I'm not sure what I would vote. There is fuck all details about what would happen at the moment. Salmond should stop having so many fancy dinners and exercise.

    I don't think they would cut ties day one, I imagine it would take years, even decades to sort it all out.

    I think it would be nice to stand on our own two feet if we could rather than London being the centre of everything but the whole thing is so light on details. Don't give a toss about patriotism which already annoys me so it needs to be rock solid, we are better off on our own with facts to back it up

    Edited by oceanmotion at 15:27:37 15-10-2012
  • Deleted user 15 October 2012 15:30:33
    Salmond strikes me as a bit of a charismatic chancer. Think he's winging it tbh.
  • chopsen 15 Oct 2012 15:38:38 16,209 posts
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    oceanmotion wrote:
    I think it would be nice to stand on our own two feet if we could rather than London being the centre of everything
    See this kind of thinking is what puzzles me about the whole devolution/nationalist/separatist mentality (not just Scottish). There doesn't seem to be any pragmatic or practical thinking about it, apart from those who are keen for it would quite like it. Any practical benefit is after the fact. The whole thing seems to be born of ideology, not what is politically useful. Ultimately what is a nation? It's a abstract political tool to get get things done. It just amazes me this is having their own is something people are not only willing to argue for, but actually fight and die for in some cases. All for the sake of what? Pride? In what? Independence? Why is that inherently good? The main people who stand to benefit from any such socio-political movement are the leaders of such movements, who go from being a a small fish in a big pond to being the only fish around. The followers are just currency.
  • DaM 15 Oct 2012 15:41:02 13,444 posts
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    mowgli wrote:
    Not convinced by independence yet, and I get the feeling salmond is losing faith in the idea.
    I think he shat himself when they got the majority, it means they have to actually do this. I think he'd be much happier with increased devolved powers, gives them a lot less to worry about. As would I, I think independence would screw my businesses, 90% of our customers are south of the border.
  • Deleted user 15 October 2012 15:41:31
    Yep, and the fact that they appear to be trying to curry favour by engendering nationalistic sentiment rather than rational thought kind of bares out your point of view.
  • Tom_Servo 15 Oct 2012 15:43:01 18,083 posts
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    DaM wrote:
    mowgli wrote:
    Not convinced by independence yet, and I get the feeling salmond is losing faith in the idea.
    I think he shat himself when they got the majority, it means they have to actually do this. I think he'd be much happier with increased devolved powers, gives them a lot less to worry about. As would I, I think independence would screw my businesses, 90% of our customers are south of the border.
    If "devo max" was on the referendum I think I'd vote for it at the moment. Proper independence, though? Going to have to read up on the potential economic implications first.
  • Deleted user 15 October 2012 15:46:26
    Would Scotland need to be accepted as a member of the EU to be able avoid all the border checks etc?
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