The UK General Politics Thread Page 5

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  • Deleted user 18 May 2011 23:22:16
    Post deleted
  • Deleted user 18 May 2011 23:22:18
    No he didn't, although that isn't entirely untrue either.
  • spamdangled 18 May 2011 23:25:33 27,485 posts
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    Yes he did. He clearly said "in some cases, the women are willing". They just repeated the whole thing on Newsnight, if you want to listen to it again.

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  • Deleted user 18 May 2011 23:33:39
    I don't need to watch it, there is a transcript on BBC:

    Clarke: No it's not, and if an 18-year-old has sex with a 15-year-old and she's perfectly willing, that is rape. That's 'cause she's underage, can't consent. Anybody has sex with a 15-year-old, it's rape. So what you and I are talking about, we're talking about a man forcibly having sex with a woman and she doesn't want to. That is rape. Serious crime, of course it's a serious crime. And I'm very glad that people do now got to the police and report it. There used to be a taboo against it, in a crazy way

    Now what part of that do you have a problem with?
  • Deleted user 18 May 2011 23:34:22
    Also, it's exactly what I already wrote so when you said 'not quite' you actually meant exactly.
  • spamdangled 18 May 2011 23:36:34 27,485 posts
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    Aargh. wrote:
    I don't need to watch it, there is a transcript on BBC:

    Clarke: No it's not, and if an 18-year-old has sex with a 15-year-old and she's perfectly willing, that is rape. That's 'cause she's underage, can't consent. Anybody has sex with a 15-year-old, it's rape. So what you and I are talking about, we're talking about a man forcibly having sex with a woman and she doesn't want to. That is rape. Serious crime, of course it's a serious crime. And I'm very glad that people do now got to the police and report it. There used to be a taboo against it, in a crazy way

    Now what part of that do you have a problem with?

    The fact that the transcript is wrong. Listen to it again numbnuts. Admittedly someone is talking over him when he says it, but it's still clearly audible.

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  • Deleted user 18 May 2011 23:42:53
    No it isn't, no they aren't and no he doesn't. 4 minutes in: here.

    I assume you have a special Liberal Democrat version.
  • spamdangled 18 May 2011 23:46:43 27,485 posts
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    @2m 46s

    "You know, serious rape with, erm, violence or an, um, unwilling woman"

    Which is of course implying that some women enjoy being raped or go out looking for it.

    But then you already said you think that's true, so you probably have no problem with that.

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  • MightyMouse 18 May 2011 23:50:06 1,145 posts
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    It also doesn't count as rape btw. The term 'statutory rape' is quite misleading (unless they're under the age of 13).

    The reason why rapists who use violence get longer sentences is because they're also charged with GBH. Date rape involving drugs or alcohol would count as an aggravating factor. Ken Clarke made a distinction between date rape and 'serious' rape that is pretty appalling.
    (http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/s1_rape/)

    However, the main point is that he mentioned that the rapes involving women who didn't consent would be punished more. Since when is rape consensual? This is the big problem people have with his comments, in that he's implying that people who have slept with someone in the past can't really be raped, that girls wearing short skirts can't really be raped and so on. It's blaming the victim, claiming that they were 'asking' for it, and that really does merit sacking.

    Final point, having heard what the BBC are putting out as the main points, if you want to come to a conclusion yourself then listen to a lot longer section since they omit the worst parts.
  • coolbritannia 18 May 2011 23:50:41 1,308 posts
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    Currently branded a paedo on facebook over this debate. It's a mob out there...

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  • spamdangled 18 May 2011 23:53:08 27,485 posts
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    MightyMouse wrote:
    It also doesn't count as rape btw. The term 'statutory rape' is quite misleading (unless they're under the age of 13).

    The reason why rapists who use violence get longer sentences is because they're also charged with GBH.

    To be honest, the act of rape itself is a violent act. Whether or not it involves additional physical beatings, forcibly pinning someone down and raping them is both violent and also extremely painful (primarily due to the lack of normal lubrication that comes through arousal). So there really is no such thing as a "non-violent rape". It's a contradiction in terms.

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  • spamdangled 18 May 2011 23:54:42 27,485 posts
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    MightyMouse wrote:
    However, the main point is that he mentioned that the rapes involving women who didn't consent would be punished more. Since when is rape consensual?

    Also this. It's a throwback to a different, mysogynistic and ignorant age where people would joke saying "oh they're asking for it" or "they enjoy it". It's highly reminiscent of a famous comment made from a senior BNP member a few years back.

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  • coolbritannia 18 May 2011 23:55:14 1,308 posts
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    Statutory rape (i.e consenting) is not violent.

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  • MightyMouse 18 May 2011 23:56:42 1,145 posts
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    Oh I entirely agree, but the 'man-jumping-out-of-the-bushes' scenario seems to suggest that somehow the rape sentencing is based on the level of violence used, which is just factually incorrect. Actually, being raped by a close friend or partner is way more damaging, but Ken Clarke would like us to see that as cuddly rape.
  • spamdangled 18 May 2011 23:58:43 27,485 posts
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    coolbritannia wrote:
    Statutory rape (i.e consenting) is not violent.

    That's true, though I personally think the whole "statutory rape" thing is a load of bollocks. I personally wouldn't consider it to be rape; the implication in statutory rape is obviously that the younger person, though consenting, is not able to make an informed decision or is being manipulated. And whilst that is obviously true in some cases (i.e some cases of paedophilia), its quite clearly bullshit in the vast majority.

    To be honest, UK legislation about sex is all a load of bollocks and should be completely overhauled. But that's a much bigger debate.

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  • coolbritannia 18 May 2011 23:58:57 1,308 posts
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    What are you on about MightyMouse?

    Ken's talking 100% sense on this, he's probably the most progressive Tory there is.

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  • WoodenSpoon 18 May 2011 23:59:30 12,306 posts
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    Totally behind Ken Clark, he's one of the few Tories I like.

    All he's saying is some rapes are worse than others - which is so obviously true it's painful.
  • Deleted user 19 May 2011 00:00:06
    darkmorgado wrote:
    @2m 46s

    "You know, serious rape with, erm, violence or an, um, unwilling woman"

    Which is of course implying that some women enjoy being raped or go out looking for it.

    But then you already said you think that's true, so you probably have no problem with that.

    It implies nothing of the sort. Rape with a willing woman is not rape or is that somehow unclear for you?

    Given that you're talking bollocks, no, I didn't say that some women go out looking for it. Neither did he.

    Quit being deliberately thick.

    darkmorgado wrote:
    Yes he did. He clearly said "in some cases, the women are willing". They just repeated the whole thing on Newsnight, if you want to listen to it again.

    I don't see these words in your quote above where he clearly said them.

    I see you've decided you want to be outraged and then listened to what was said to make sure you can find a reason to be outraged. I honestly find your determination to hear something that was neither said nor implied astounding.
  • spamdangled 19 May 2011 00:00:27 27,485 posts
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    MightyMouse wrote:
    Actually, being raped by a close friend or partner is way more damaging, but Ken Clarke would like us to see that as cuddly rape.

    Absolutely, but then it strays into domestic abuse. Which is also an area of law that is severely fucking lacking and not taken seriously by the courts. I was pretty amazed when I learned that domestic violence doesn't actually exist as a crime, they just cover it using regular assault offences. Which is pathetic.

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  • coolbritannia 19 May 2011 00:02:08 1,308 posts
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    he's implying that people who have slept with someone in the past can't really be raped, that girls wearing short skirts can't really be raped and so on. It's blaming the victim, claiming that they were 'asking' for it

    Is he? Because I didn't get that from what he said at all. If anything, and I'm hesitant to suggest this, this debate could be reflecting more of our own views than Ken Clarke's....

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  • Deleted user 19 May 2011 00:02:38
    For clarification, he's actually implying that sometimes rape is violent (hitting, knifes, whatever), sometimes it isn't.
  • spamdangled 19 May 2011 00:02:58 27,485 posts
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    Aargh, I think you're the one being deliberately thick here. You've been shown to be wrong and now you're just desperately trying to cover yourself. You also said on the last page that it's "not entirely untrue" that some women don't enjoy it (though I expect you may have frantically edited that bit out now given that it really makes you look like a monumental prick).

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  • spamdangled 19 May 2011 00:04:03 27,485 posts
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    Aargh. wrote:
    For clarification, he's actually implying that sometimes rape is violent (hitting, knifes, whatever), sometimes it isn't.

    Don't be fucking stupid. Rape is violent. It's a violent crime, regardless of whether additional physical beatings are involved.

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  • coolbritannia 19 May 2011 00:05:11 1,308 posts
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    Rape is not always a violent crime. Not in the legal definition of rape.

    Would someone under duress, blackmail, or arranged marriage, be considered rape (under the definition of rape always being a violent act)?

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  • Deleted user 19 May 2011 00:06:27
    Nothing I've said is wrong. You're reading into something with a very clear agenda of reading it in the worst possible way.

    Why would I edit out something that is true in some instances? You think that there aren't some extremely rare occasions where some women do go looking for it? That's a pretty sheltered life you have if you believe that.
  • FWB 19 May 2011 00:08:15 45,652 posts
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    Agree with coolbritannia, rape doesn't have to be a violent crime.
  • Deleted user 19 May 2011 00:08:31
    darkmorgado wrote:
    Aargh. wrote:
    For clarification, he's actually implying that sometimes rape is violent (hitting, knifes, whatever), sometimes it isn't.

    Don't be fucking stupid. Rape is violent. It's a violent crime, regardless of whether additional physical beatings are involved.

    Except where it isn't. Like in the examples you have also stated.

    Deliberately outraged for the sake of being outraged.
  • spamdangled 19 May 2011 00:09:01 27,485 posts
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    coolbritannia wrote:
    Rape is not always a violent crime. Not in the legal definition of rape.

    Would someone under duress, blackmail, or arranged marriage, be considered rape (under the definition of rape always being a violent act)?

    Rape itself, the physical act, is violent, as I already mentioned above. The act of rape is painful because of the lack of natural lubrication.

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  • Khanivor 19 May 2011 00:10:04 41,297 posts
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    Can you guys keep it up till I get hone from the pub? Seems like dm is going on an epic mong.
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