The UK General Politics Thread Page 37

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  • Chopsen 17 Sep 2012 17:27:01 13,711 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    That's always been the problem with exams - they're not reflective of real-world situations. Coursework is far more reflective of general ability in a subject IMO - particularly for children with SEN, who won't function well in a traditional exam environment.

    Coursework provides a good balance between theory knowledge and practical application of that knowledge.
    Academic study is not reflective of real-world situations.

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  • darkmorgado 17 Sep 2012 17:27:44 22,510 posts
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    Hands up how many people actually use long division or multiplication on a regular basis?

    (I know it's an old and cliched point, but still)

    Edited by darkmorgado at 17:29:18 17-09-2012

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  • nickthegun 17 Sep 2012 17:30:24 44,324 posts
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    Thats not really the point, is it? If we only learned things we used in day to day life, we would be a nation of thick bastards.

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  • StarchildHypocrethes 17 Sep 2012 17:33:16 22,461 posts
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    School should purely consist of emails, spreadsheets and meetings.
  • Bremenacht 17 Sep 2012 17:33:26 11,122 posts
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    Maybe they should just hand out an "I am educated" card at the end of school, and leave all the guesswork to employers.

    Actually, I think I'll email Gove right now.. (think of the savings!)

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  • darkmorgado 17 Sep 2012 17:34:31 22,510 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    Thats not really the point, is it? If we only learned things we used in day to day life, we would be a nation of thick bastards.
    True, but there is an imbalance between practical knowledge and stuff that will rarely be used.

    But all of that could be addressed simply by overhauling the curriculum and the exam board system - there was no need for top-down reform. It just screams of "let's make a big change for the sake of it, so we can say we did something big"

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  • Bremenacht 17 Sep 2012 17:35:47 11,122 posts
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    So, are these new O-levels going to have fixed quotas for each grade?

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  • Chopsen 17 Sep 2012 17:38:48 13,711 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    nickthegun wrote:
    Thats not really the point, is it? If we only learned things we used in day to day life, we would be a nation of thick bastards.
    True, but there is an imbalance between practical knowledge and stuff that will rarely be used.

    But all of that could be addressed simply by overhauling the curriculum and the exam board system - there was no need for top-down reform. It just screams of "let's make a big change for the sake of it, so we can say we did something big"
    Top down reform is necessary if you're going to maintain consistent standards. "Simply" reforming the curriculum has been tried and didn't work.

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  • darkmorgado 17 Sep 2012 17:41:16 22,510 posts
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    @Chopsen

    Which is why I said it should be done in conjunction with exam board reform :-)

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  • Bremenacht 17 Sep 2012 17:42:40 11,122 posts
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    I've just read about it on the BBC. Doesn't sound bad at all. These Baccalaureate are solid educational currency already aren't they? Being able to take the exam a bit later than normal (up to 18, the report says) is a good idea for the thick Jimmys.

    I was a thick Jimmy. I much prefered mud to schoolbooks.

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  • Bremenacht 17 Sep 2012 17:43:57 11,122 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    @Chopsen

    Which is why I said it should be done in conjunction with exam board reform :-)
    The news report says that is what will happen. So we're all happy, right? :D

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  • faux_carnation 17 Sep 2012 17:51:58 7,679 posts
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    Chopsen wrote:
    darkmorgado wrote:
    nickthegun wrote:
    Thats not really the point, is it? If we only learned things we used in day to day life, we would be a nation of thick bastards.
    True, but there is an imbalance between practical knowledge and stuff that will rarely be used.

    But all of that could be addressed simply by overhauling the curriculum and the exam board system - there was no need for top-down reform. It just screams of "let's make a big change for the sake of it, so we can say we did something big"
    Top down reform is necessary if you're going to maintain consistent standards. "Simply" reforming the curriculum has been tried and didn't work.
    By what standard is the curriculum currently "not working"? The changes aren't going to produce better educated students, they're just going to produce more clearly stratified students.
  • darkmorgado 17 Sep 2012 17:57:09 22,510 posts
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    Bremenacht wrote:
    darkmorgado wrote:
    @Chopsen

    Which is why I said it should be done in conjunction with exam board reform :-)
    The news report says that is what will happen. So we're all happy, right? :D
    No, because the new system will lead to the sidelining of people who don't all learn in the same way. We know there are different ways of learning now - kinesthetics, visual learning, etc etc. One size does not fit all if people learn in different ways. Combined with diminishing SEN support, an increase in free schools, etc etc, we're heading back to a country where opportunities are only given to the few instead of the many - and the grumbling over the current GCSE standard and all the bad-mouthing its getting could lead to students who qualified under the old system being devalued compared to people under the new one (just like last time).

    I hope I'm wrong, but I am deeply pessimistic over this. It just feels really regressive.

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  • Chopsen 17 Sep 2012 17:59:04 13,711 posts
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    I didn't say that it wasn't working, though my teacher friends say it is shit. But then they would, wouldn't they? Apart from thinking astronomy should be compulsory, I don't really know enough about it.

    Having more clearly stratified students would be a good thing imho.

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  • Chopsen 17 Sep 2012 18:02:48 13,711 posts
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    darkmorgado wrote:
    One size does not fit all if people learn in different ways.
    So why pretend that it does, as does the GCSE?

    That people would find it difficult is not an argument against having a "proper" academic exam should not with clear stratification of ability and focus on exams. It is an argument for a range educational/qualification pathways that optimises people's aptitude for development and contribution to society.

    But that way grammar schools lie, and they're the work of nazi's apparently.

    Edited by Chopsen at 18:03:16 17-09-2012

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  • Psychotext 17 Sep 2012 18:05:24 49,160 posts
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    I'm really struggling to see the point of a qualification where the exam is everything. Working in the real world isn't like that (frankly I'd be fucked if I couldn't look stuff up) so why do we teach kids that way?

    They'll learn it in exactly the same way people have been learning exams for years... parrot fashion, and then forgotten.

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  • LeoliansBro 17 Sep 2012 18:05:55 35,019 posts
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    I welcome the clarity of the new system. Coursework may be more reflective of the demands of adult life (maybe) but it is also pretty fucking easy to distort your results.

    Plus training someone to build a knowledge base to a point where they have to demonstrate their understanding under pressure seems solid to me. Those who prepare longest and hardest will achieve the best results. Oh, but some people don't work well under pressure? Yes, well they're going to be equally fucked in whatever high powered job they want to springboard to with coursework plagiarised from wikipedia.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • faux_carnation 17 Sep 2012 18:06:22 7,679 posts
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    The whole assessment thing is bullshit anyway. I did my GCSEs 10 years ago, got 11 A*s without any stress. Other people worked their arses off to get Bs and Cs. Presumably under this new system, I would just have to stress a lot more to get the same grades as I wouldn't have my guaranteed coursework marks before sitting the exams, whilst the B and C people will still work their fingers to the bone but become C and D people, meanwhile loads more people drop out of the bottom completely and fail. How's that going to make anyone happier?
  • LeoliansBro 17 Sep 2012 18:06:57 35,019 posts
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    And Psycho, it isn't the factual content that matters, it's the discipline.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • RunningMan 17 Sep 2012 18:08:05 2,182 posts
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    @Psychotext, +1 on this. Course work actually simulates how a lot of jobs work. I have no idea why Gove is going down this route. Cannot stand that man, he's really mucky my kids about as they bisect the switch over period for the new exam.
  • Chopsen 17 Sep 2012 18:08:16 13,711 posts
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    Exams aren't about making people happy.

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  • LeoliansBro 17 Sep 2012 18:11:03 35,019 posts
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    Faux, why not just give everyone A* grades for everything so everyone's happy? Grades are supposed to differentiate, not compliment.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Psychotext 17 Sep 2012 18:12:50 49,160 posts
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    LeoliansBro wrote:
    And Psycho, it isn't the factual content that matters, it's the discipline.
    What discipline? The discipline to read something over and over again until it finally stays in for long enough to write it down on a bit of paper? I've been doing various exams outside of academia for years (professional stuff) and the most pointless ones are the ones you can just cram for.

    Give me a bunch of kids that can be shown a problem and know the right skills to go about solving it, because most people educated this way will make it into the real world woefully unprepared. (and yeah, I've seen this first hand with employees to some extent)

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  • Chopsen 17 Sep 2012 18:13:56 13,711 posts
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    You can't test problem solving in an exam situation?

    Edited by Chopsen at 18:14:09 17-09-2012

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  • faux_carnation 17 Sep 2012 18:13:57 7,679 posts
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    The whole point of government should be to make people happy.

    The exams as they are at the moment differentiate between people. Increasing the number of people labelled failures at the age of 16 isn't going to help them go on to be useful participants in society. We should stop worrying about trying to nurture some master race and concentrate on personal fulfillment ffs.
  • Psychotext 17 Sep 2012 18:15:14 49,160 posts
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    Chopsen wrote:
    You can't test problem solving in an exam situation?
    Not in any meaningful real world manner, no. Group projects on the other hand...

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  • Chopsen 17 Sep 2012 18:20:07 13,711 posts
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    Psychotext wrote:
    Chopsen wrote:
    You can't test problem solving in an exam situation?
    Not in any meaningful real world manner, no. Group projects on the other hand...
    I think this that is dependent on level that a subject is taught too. The way science was taught to me was as a list of dry facts. So yeah, no exam is going to much of anything there apart from testing recall.

    Outside of school, I've done exams where none of the information was presented to me before hand, and I had to use skills that I'd learned to critically evaluate what is put in front of me.

    "Group work" depends on what you mean. I did a group project once at uni that I won a prize for. I did bugger all though and was carried by some very motivated bright people who did the heavy lifting.

    There are pros and cons to either.

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  • LeoliansBro 17 Sep 2012 18:29:20 35,019 posts
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    Psycho, there are other benefits to exams. Those who work less hard will have no group colleagues to hide behind. Retention if information is an important skill, and in preparing you don't just learn the knowledge, you learn how to learn the knowledge. You must be able to express yourself articulately, under pressure, without error and with accuracy. You must have self discipline (or innate talent) to prepare for something years away rather than have your progress chopped up for you like a child who can't cut his own food. You must be brave, independent, and confident in your abilities, the exam hall has to be one of the scariest places for a child and one of the few where there is nobody to help.

    I still say this is a very good thing.

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • LeoliansBro 17 Sep 2012 18:32:42 35,019 posts
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    For all the doe-eyed doting mothers looking for support and understamding at their (average) child's (average, somehow) exam results, and trying to bridge the gap between truth and expectation by saying 'he is clever, really he is, he's just not good at exams. He's really very, very clever' I would answer 'Not when it mattered.'

    LB, you really are a massive geek.

  • Chopsen 17 Sep 2012 18:33:44 13,711 posts
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    I don't think course work is an *inherently* wrong way to assess people. It's just that at the level you study at in school, it's far to easy to plagiarize and get help from others. It's was more of a test of a child's home circumstances than ability to perform any task from when I was in school.

    Edited by Chopsen at 18:34:14 17-09-2012

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