The all-new Premier League thread Page 3232

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  • kalel 5 Feb 2013 13:47:46 86,344 posts
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    RE: the West Ham/Chelsea thing, this is a huge topic, but for me generally speaking we muddy the issue of anti-Semitism at Spurs by singing the Yid thing. I get why we do it and I can see both sides, but it does make the line between what is and isn't ok somewhat blurred.

    As for the hissing thing, it's an easy one to get away with as they can always claim they were "shushing" (as in it's so quiet), which they've claimed before.
  • Shikasama 5 Feb 2013 13:53:20 6,605 posts
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    Aye, its difficult to be outraged when the BSL say the Yid chants are anti Semitic, then claim antisemitism at someone elses chants.

    I know what all the arguments would be and some of them are valid, some of them aren't. Do't think it is really worth the argument for any of the parties involved though.

    Interesting that the BSL have shut up recently though, maybe the guy got whatever he wanted out of it.
  • puddleduck 5 Feb 2013 14:26:56 1,853 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Dude, it was a joke :)
    I was aware of that :p

    @shik - Yeah he did, publicity.

    It's a tough one, because I always considered the Yid chant as something proud. Much like a lot of American rap music, it is reclaiming the word whilst simultaneously never forgetting what went before it. Yet my step-father, whose side of the family are far stricter than mine finds it an uncomfortable song that he doesn't feel has a place. Certainly the deliberate hissing to replicate the gas chambers with no other intention but to insult is far worse, but the lines are definitely blurred.

    Edited by puddleduck at 14:30:49 05-02-2013
  • kalel 5 Feb 2013 14:38:30 86,344 posts
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    I think it is proud for those who do it, and it's done with good intent, but equally it offends others and opens us up to racism.

    Personally, I'd prefer us to stop. It served a purpose in a different time when we were regularly subject to racist abuse and nobody cared, but that time is over. I think we should move on. I also think the same thing about the 'n word' in rap music fwiw. At some point you're perpetuating the use of a word that should be allowed to die of death, and at that point you're being counter-productive as to why you needed to subvert the word in the first place.

    But equally it's not something I'm particularly militant about. When I see groups of fans of all races singing 'Yid Army' passionately at games, as a Jew I feel quite proud. It's a rare thing to see anyone being proud of being Jewish, let alone non-Jews :)
  • THFourteen 5 Feb 2013 14:43:53 32,858 posts
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    Agree totally there, i don't care what religion, race, colour or ethnic background Tottenham fans are.

    You're all equally wankers in my book.
  • THFourteen 5 Feb 2013 14:44:10 32,858 posts
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    Oh, forgot smiley

    :-)
  • The-Bodybuilder 5 Feb 2013 15:00:43 14,058 posts
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    puddleduck wrote:
    In fact, without Chelsea's big investment from Roman and Man City's from Mansour, would anyone other than Man U have won the league since Arsenal? Is that really what we're looking at?
    Quite possibly.
    For one, the rise of Chelsea and City, if it never happened would've ensured clubs who "built properly"; like Everton and Spurs, would've been in the CL top 4, got even more money to invest, and thus would have enough to challenge for the title.
  • kalel 5 Feb 2013 15:03:56 86,344 posts
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    Exactly. We would have been a regular CL team at least for the last five years if it hadn't been for Chelsea and City.

    Not only that, but the players they've bought would have been players we might conceivably have signed. Players we had in the past like Klinsmann, Gazza, Linekar etc would never had come to Spurs today. No chance.
  • The-Bodybuilder 5 Feb 2013 15:14:32 14,058 posts
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    And that's without mentioning the fact that Spurs, Everton and even Arsenal would've been able to hold on to their players.

    And then there is the effect they had on inflating wages, pushing out the rest of th eleague from getting top players. Now every top player wants 100k per week ot they tell you to piss off.
  • kalel 5 Feb 2013 15:17:26 86,344 posts
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    I also again maintain that there's still lots of things a billionaire can do to make little clubs into big ones within FFP. It's just all good healthy stuff, as opposed to just buying expensive players.
  • nickthegun 5 Feb 2013 15:18:00 58,784 posts
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    The flipside is that manyoo would have won every trophy for the last ten years so, y'know, fuck that noise.

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    He totally called it

  • Shikasama 5 Feb 2013 15:21:41 6,605 posts
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    The Premier League is a toxic market for these type of owners anyway. Unless you have Usmanov money you look at the Premier League and think 'Right sahib, we have to compete with Abramovich, the Sheikhs from over the road and one of the most succesfull clubs in history'.

    It isn't a very hospitable league for another Abramovich type.
  • Deckard1 5 Feb 2013 15:22:13 27,147 posts
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    I miss the transfer window.
  • kalel 5 Feb 2013 15:29:20 86,344 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    The flipside is that manyoo would have won every trophy for the last ten years so, y'know, fuck that noise.
    I dunno. Arsenal seemed to be able to go toe-to-toe with United once they had a decent manager. It was only when Chelsea got their billions that Arsenal got pushed out the picture.
  • nickthegun 5 Feb 2013 15:32:51 58,784 posts
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    There are still plenty of teams around the world that would have snaffled their best players, not just city. I think arsenal would have kept exactly the same trajectory as they have. Their comparative downfall is pure wenger, nothing to do with chelsea or city,

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    He totally called it

  • Syrette 5 Feb 2013 15:43:10 43,063 posts
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    THFourteen wrote:
    Agree totally there, i don't care what religion, race, colour or ethnic background Tottenham fans are.

    You're all equally wankers in my book.
    :lol:

  • FWB 5 Feb 2013 15:44:04 43,807 posts
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    Deckard1 wrote:
    I miss the transfer window.
    Nothing to read about after work. :(
  • Dougs 5 Feb 2013 16:19:10 66,670 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    There are still plenty of teams around the world that would have snaffled their best players, not just city. I think arsenal would have kept exactly the same trajectory as they have. Their comparative downfall is pure wenger, nothing to do with chelsea or city,
    It's less to do with Wenger and more to do with the stadium move. Which we embarked on to compete with Utd's revenues.... Which in turn was blown out of the water by the billionaires. Sure, there are things I wish he'd done differently, but most of the path we've been on is down to being hampered by the move, with a but of it down to Wenger’s stubbornness and ideals.
  • kalel 5 Feb 2013 16:33:23 86,344 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    There are still plenty of teams around the world that would have snaffled their best players, not just city. I think arsenal would have kept exactly the same trajectory as they have. Their comparative downfall is pure wenger, nothing to do with chelsea or city,
    Sure, but the point is that if Arsenal can be competitive in the absence of Chelsea and City, so could have Spurs, or Everton, or Liverpool, or Villa even.
  • President_Weasel 5 Feb 2013 16:34:52 8,964 posts
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    You should be careful of the antisemitism stuff, or you'll never get on Britain's Got Bakers. Everyone knows the Jews run Paul Hollywood.
  • nickthegun 5 Feb 2013 16:42:37 58,784 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    nickthegun wrote:
    There are still plenty of teams around the world that would have snaffled their best players, not just city. I think arsenal would have kept exactly the same trajectory as they have. Their comparative downfall is pure wenger, nothing to do with chelsea or city,
    Sure, but the point is that if Arsenal can be competitive in the absence of Chelsea and City, so could have Spurs, or Everton, or Liverpool, or Villa even.
    Yeah, everyone would have shuffled up two places so you would have had maybe six years CL money in the bank.

    My meagre point is that none of you would have challenged utds dominance, so im happy they spunked billions up the wall, frankly.

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    He totally called it

  • kalel 5 Feb 2013 16:43:52 86,344 posts
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    But Arsenal did challenge their dominance! As did Liverpool...kinda...
  • nickthegun 5 Feb 2013 16:46:55 58,784 posts
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    President_Weasel wrote:
    You should be careful of the antisemitism stuff, or you'll never get on Britain's Got Bakers. Everyone knows the Jews run Paul Hollywood.
    Thats more tortured than a brown man in cia custody

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    He totally called it

  • nickthegun 5 Feb 2013 16:50:05 58,784 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    But Arsenal did challenge their dominance! As did Liverpool...kinda...
    I know but they fell away and it had nothing to do with chelsea or city is what im saying. They were challenging before roman came along.

    Yeah, they may have finished second every year for the last ten years, but it would still have been well behind utd.

    Edited by nickthegun at 16:50:34 05-02-2013

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    He totally called it

  • Blotto 5 Feb 2013 16:52:22 2,715 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    nickthegun wrote:
    There are still plenty of teams around the world that would have snaffled their best players, not just city. I think arsenal would have kept exactly the same trajectory as they have. Their comparative downfall is pure wenger, nothing to do with chelsea or city,
    Sure, but the point is that if Arsenal can be competitive in the absence of Chelsea and City, so could have Spurs, or Everton, or Liverpool, or Villa even.
    Disagree to a certain extent. Some of it is to do with Wenger, granted, but as much as we Arsenal fans like to bleat on about how the players left because they're greedy. It's only Cesc who really left with another reason that wasn't "I want to win things" and even then that was definitely a factor. If we were challenging for the title/winning things then I'm pretty sure we'd still have Nasri/Van Persie at least. Plus a few other less high profile players.
  • kalel 5 Feb 2013 16:57:35 86,344 posts
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    What's happened to Arsenal since is irrelevant to be honest. The point is that in the absence of City and Chelsea, other clubs may well have emulated what Arsenal were doing at one point. So your statement that United would have just won everything is (perhaps) not true.

    For what it's worth, I don't think I agree that what's happened to Arsenal had absolutely nothing to do with Chelsea and City. I think Wenger's experiment was partly because he knew he'd never be able to sign the equivalents to the likes of Bergkamp and Henry now that those guys were on the scene. It was partly a reaction to what was happening elsewhere. But that's a side point as I say.
  • nickthegun 5 Feb 2013 17:02:38 58,784 posts
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    I think the opposite is true. Not being able to hold onto great players rather than sign them and that isnt chelseas fault.

    The rot properly started with Ashley Cole. A season (?) after they won the league they offered the worlds best left back a 5k pay rise. I know he went to chelsea but literally any of the top 5 clubs in the world would have taken him at 90k pw.

    I genuinely dont think anyone would have been able to challenge utd. Being already well established by 'doing things the right way' they would be able to piss on every other team in the league. It would take a generation of success for anyone to be able to catch them up in the traditional way, so they would continue to financially dope their way to success by buying the best players, as they always have done.

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    He totally called it

  • reddevil93 5 Feb 2013 17:11:20 11,373 posts
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    Circular arguments about stuff that's been discussed loads of times in the PL thread, colour me shocked :)

    Maybe we should have a desperate thread for racism, financial doping and Suarez' teeth

  • kalel 5 Feb 2013 17:16:18 86,344 posts
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    I know I'm repeating myself, but I just think the very fact that Arsenal had such a successful period right in the middle of United's dominance shows it could be done. And let's not forget Blackburn, or how close Newcastle came.

    It's all deeply hypothetical but Chelsea and City have had a profound effect on the league, and there's no way of knowing what might have happened, but I think there's a very good chance other teams will have done Blackburns and Newcastles. For example, it's a fact that Levy was courting Mourinho before Chelsea came and got him. Who knows what he could have done at Spurs. And that's just one example of how things could have panned out differently.
  • kalel 5 Feb 2013 17:16:52 86,344 posts
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    reddevil93 wrote:
    Circular arguments about stuff that's been discussed loads of times in the PL thread, colour me shocked :)

    Maybe we should have a desperate thread for racism, financial doping and Suarez' teeth
    Shall we just go back to talking about how fucking shit De Gea is then?
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