The all-new Premier League thread Page 4519

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  • kalel 21 Jan 2014 10:18:31 83,801 posts
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    Yeah to be clear, United should and would be falling over themselves to make space for him in their team, but I think he could do better. I think the likes of Madrid and Barca would be happy to have him in their squad, and I think he's rather go there and fight for a starting place, than go and play for United.

    I think we're very narrow minded when it comes to the PL, and the supposed draw of playing here. If the situation was the other way round we'd see it very differently. Say Gareth Bale wasn't getting a game at Madrid and they were looking to move him on. Would we think a return to England to play for City or Chelsea more likely than him being loaned to Seville? I suspect so.
  • SolidSCB 21 Jan 2014 10:19:24 5,819 posts
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    Mata is just January's Fabregas
  • nickthegun 21 Jan 2014 10:21:39 55,848 posts
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    A player who you have no real hope of landing?

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    He totally called it

  • SolidSCB 21 Jan 2014 10:25:56 5,819 posts
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    Exactly. Pissing into the wind.
  • mcmonkeyplc 21 Jan 2014 10:27:54 38,847 posts
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    I concur.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • mikew1985 21 Jan 2014 10:49:30 12,039 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Yeah to be clear, United should and would be falling over themselves to make space for him in their team, but I think he could do better. I think the likes of Madrid and Barca would be happy to have him in their squad, and I think he's rather go there and fight for a starting place, than go and play for United.

    I think we're very narrow minded when it comes to the PL, and the supposed draw of playing here. If the situation was the other way round we'd see it very differently. Say Gareth Bale wasn't getting a game at Madrid and they were looking to move him on. Would we think a return to England to play for City or Chelsea more likely than him being loaned to Seville? I suspect so.
    Valid up to point; United are not the Seville of the PL. We're having one bad season, however are still a relatively massive club. I don't think it's quite the same as the situation you're outlining.
  • Dougs 21 Jan 2014 11:00:46 64,868 posts
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    I'd agree with that tbh. You'd like to think someone like Mata would be up for the challenge. It's easy to join a winning team, stuffed full of world class players and get paid more than you could dream of. Actually, I'm not sure what my point is...
  • nickthegun 21 Jan 2014 11:04:07 55,848 posts
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    Its also going to be about money. Man U are one of the few clubs capable (maybe not willing) of matching or improving on his chelsea deal.

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    He totally called it

  • reddevil93 21 Jan 2014 11:25:56 11,247 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Say Gareth Bale wasn't getting a game at Madrid and they were looking to move him on. Would we think a return to England to play for City or Chelsea more likely than him being loaned to Seville? I suspect so.
    You have to take into account it's a WC year. Would Bale move back to be a squad player at City or Chelsea if he wanted to force his way into a World Cup squad?

  • bbvDJC 21 Jan 2014 11:31:36 1,637 posts
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    Yeah you'd apply the same to Mata then, come to united, you'll get game time which increases your chance of going to the WC.

    Going to Barca or Real for example and he still might not get a game.
  • nickthegun 21 Jan 2014 11:32:55 55,848 posts
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    reddevil93 wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    Say Gareth Bale wasn't getting a game at Madrid and they were looking to move him on. Would we think a return to England to play for City or Chelsea more likely than him being loaned to Seville? I suspect so.
    You have to take into account it's a WC year. Would Bale move back to be a squad player at City or Chelsea if he wanted to force his way into a World Cup squad?
    Hah, wales in the world cup... priceless...

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    He totally called it

  • SolidSCB 21 Jan 2014 11:37:20 5,819 posts
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    I don't think the issue would be with Mata not wanting to play for us, more a case of Chelsea not wanting to sell to us. Not without Rooney going in the other direction anyway.
  • THFourteen 21 Jan 2014 11:46:18 31,781 posts
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    SolidSCB wrote:
    I don't think the issue would be with Mata not wanting to play for us
    :-D
  • Kay 21 Jan 2014 11:51:11 17,390 posts
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    Utd need a top-class AM, and Mata needs playing time. If he moves there he would be pretty much guaranteed a starting spot. Why would he want to join Barca or Madrid and just sit on the bench with the other half a dozen midfielders they've got? He's already doing that at Chelsea.
  • Dougs 21 Jan 2014 11:52:02 64,868 posts
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    Hilarious that it's taken the FA 3 weeks to decide whether or not to charge Anelka. And fair play to Zoopla too.
  • nickthegun 21 Jan 2014 11:54:33 55,848 posts
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    Its a weird one, though. As far as I understand it, its one of those things where people have taken it to be racist despite the originator insisting that its not.

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    He totally called it

  • Dougs 21 Jan 2014 11:56:51 64,868 posts
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    Yeah, I'm not sure whether this comedian chap has anything antisemetic on record that supports that assumption or not, but the French seem to have gone mental about it. It's more the FA sitting around with their finger up their backsides for 3 weeks that made me laugh.
  • bbvDJC 21 Jan 2014 12:18:11 1,637 posts
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    SolidSCB wrote:
    I don't think the issue would be with Mata not wanting to play for us, more a case of Chelsea not wanting to sell to us. Not without Rooney going in the other direction anyway.
    I've seen a couple of mentions of them asking for forty million instead of the thirty seven we've already bid (apparently) if it's true it seems they may be willing to deal.

    Jose has already said he's given up on Rooney now hasn't he?
  • kalel 21 Jan 2014 12:25:56 83,801 posts
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    I'm very hesitant to claim anti-Semitism intent where there's any room for doubt. There's enough crying wolf about it in the world.

    The comedian himself certainly has extremely openly anti-Zionist (which is fine, it's a valid and not implicitly racist point of view), and he seems to revel in the trend of doing the symbol and being photographed at places like synagogues and even Aushwitz, which I don't think leaves much debate about anti-Semitic intent. I'm pretty sure he is an anti-Semite based on what I've read about him and his use of the gesture.

    There's less certainly for me whether Anelka and other footballers like Nasri and Sahko who have also been photographed doing it, are being anti-Semetic or what. They're all Muslims, so it's hard not to read that at the very least it's an anti-Zionist thing. Maybe they're unaware of the wider implications anti-Semetic implicatiobs, maybe they are. Who knows.
  • SolidSCB 21 Jan 2014 12:28:29 5,819 posts
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    I just don't see Chelsea selling us Mata without there being some kind of catch. A £40m, no strings transfer would be great but I just don't see it happening at all.

    Would also be interesting seeing where he fits in. Seems a luxury signing to me when we need to desperately get someone in at CM, unless we are going to persevere with Fellaini in the holding role.

    RVP
    Januzaj - Rooney - Mata
    Carrick - Fellaini(?)

    With Evra and Rafael providing extra width. Could be tasty.
  • nickthegun 21 Jan 2014 12:28:36 55,848 posts
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    Its a big fad over there, by all accounts. Seems to be one of those things that catches on where 99% of people dont actually understand the implications of it.

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    He totally called it

  • faux_carnation 21 Jan 2014 12:31:06 8,463 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    arials101 wrote:
    Well seeing as he wouldn't be eligible for England until he's 22 ...no.

    The same article says that Algeria want to call him into their next senior squad, and if he's any good France will come calling before he's 22. I hope the media isn't going to start writing puff pieces about every young foreign player who gets capped in the Premier League before they get capped by their country.
    In the last World Cup Germany had half a squad of players that were naturalised, and they were all courted as early as possible. it's how you get them, otherwise they go and play for Poland or Turkey or wherever they were born.

    You might as well do it. It gives you options. Nobody is saying Benteleb or Januzaj should or would play for England, just that they could, and it's an option worth keeping open.

    Or we could just rely on our own excellent youth development system I guess.
    There's a big difference between the German players who are ethnically Polish or Turkish or whatever but actually grew up in Germany with German citizenship and players who have literally only moved to England to play football, don't you think?
  • Zizoo 21 Jan 2014 12:33:15 7,677 posts
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    Your national football squad is going to look like your cricket squad... only with less (no) South Africans.
  • kalel 21 Jan 2014 12:34:48 83,801 posts
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    I'm talking about players that were not born in Germany and chose to have German citizenship. I.E I'm not talking about Ozil.

    Look, I know plenty of Aussies and such who have lived here for a while and have chosen to have British citizenship. This is effectively the same thing. If these players have been here (or will have been here) for five years, and feel a strong enough bond with the country to claim citizenship, and represent the country at sporting level, then great.

    It's not like China or the Middle East where they're literally shipping over Brazilians with the specific intent of naturalising them. This is just making people who are already living here aware of their options. Again, we'd be idiots not to do it. Everyone else is.
  • nickthegun 21 Jan 2014 12:37:11 55,848 posts
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    Zizoo wrote:
    Your national football squad is going to look like your cricket squad... only with less (no) South Africans.
    If they start winning things, i couldnt care less if they came from mars.

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    He totally called it

  • faux_carnation 21 Jan 2014 12:43:40 8,463 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    I'm talking about players that were not born in Germany and chose to have German citizenship. I.E I'm not talking about Ozil.
    I don't want to be boring about this, but I've got a lot of free time today and I've just been through the 2010 German squad on Wikipedia. Cacau was the only naturalised player in the squad (he's Brazilian). Podolski, Trochowski and Marin moved to Germany as children. Every other player was born in Germany.
  • Dougs 21 Jan 2014 12:46:22 64,868 posts
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    What about Lewandowski? :D
  • President_Weasel 21 Jan 2014 13:13:57 8,604 posts
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    There are a lot of supporters of Israel who seem eager to conflate anti-Israel sentiment with antisemitism, which makes the whole issue a horrible, confusing morass for the rest of us. For the record it's perfectly possible to strongly disapprove of Israel without in any way hating Jews, just like it's possible to disapprove of the actions of the US military/industrial/espionage complex without in any way hating Americans.

    I've no idea if he's an antisemite or an anti-zionist, but he says he's an anti-zionist and the gesture's supposed to represent fisting (or giving a suppository to) zionism. Hard to miss the resemblance to the Nazi salute though, so at the very least it's in poor taste and a stupid choice for the message he claims to be trying to give. So he's either a bit of an idiot or else he's a bit of a jew-hater, or at the very least a jew-baiter.

    On the other hand there's a freedom of speech issue, and unless he's actively promoting racist violence it's probably a bad idea to ban him because censorship should be kept to a minimum possible level.

    TLDNR version: I have no fucking idea about this and wish Anelka hadn't done that gesture so I wouldn't have had to think about it.
  • kalel 21 Jan 2014 13:14:42 83,801 posts
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    Perhaps my understanding of what a naturalised player is, is incorrect, but I basically mean players that weren't born in the country.

    At the last World Cup most teams had a number of players not born in their country. England was one of the few that didn't.


    Germany 6 - Podolski, Trahowski, Klose (Poland), Cacau (Brazil), Marin (Yugoslavia), Beck (Russia)

    Portugal 6 – Deco, Pepe, Liédson (Brazil), Danny Miguel (Venezuela), Nani – (Cape Verde) and Daniel Fernandes (Canada)

    Switzerland 5 – Valon Behrami, Albert Bunjaku, Xherdan Shaqiri (Kosovo), Blaise Nkufo (DR Congo) and Gelson Fernandes (Cape Verde)

    Cameroon 4 – Benoît Assou-Ekotto, Sébastien Bassong (both France) and Eric Maxim Choupo-Moting, Joël Matip (both Germany)

    New Zealand 4 – Tim Brown, Dave Mulligan, Tommy Smith (all England) and Shane Smeltz (Germany)

    Chile 3 – Jorge Valdivia (Venezuela), Mark González (South Africa) and Matías Fernández (Argentina)

    France 3 – Patrice Evra (Senegal), Flourent Malouda (French Guiana) and Steve Mandanda (DR Congo)

    Greece 3 – Avraam Papadopoulos (Australia), Loukas Vyntra (Czech Republic) and Sotiris Ninis (Albania)

    Australia 2 – Nikita Rukavytsya (Ukraine) and Dario Vidošić (Croatia)

    Ghana 2 – André Ayew (France) and Kevin-Prince Boateng (Germany)

    Ivory Coast 2 – Guy Demel and Sol Bamba (both France)

    North Korea 2 – Ahn Young-Hak and Jong Tae-Se (both Japan)

    Paraguay 2 – Jonathan Santana and Néstor Ortigoza (both Argentina)

    Serbia 2 – Neven Subotić (Bosnia & Herzegovina) and Zdravko Kuzmanović (Switzerland)

    Slovenia 2 – Elvedin Džinič and Zlatko Dedič (both Bosnia & Herzegovina)

    USA 2 – Benny Feilhaber (Brazil) and Stuart Holden (Scotland)

    Denmark 1 – Jesper Grønkjær (Greenland)* Italy 1 – Mauro Camoranesi (Argentina)

    Japan 1 – Marcus Tulio Tanaka (Brazil)

    Mexico 1 – Guilherme Franco (Argentina)

    Netherlands 1 – Edson Braafheid (Suriname)

    Nigeria 1 – Peter Odemwingie (Uzbekistan)

    South Africa 1 – Bongani Khumalo (Swaziland)

    South Korea 1 – Cha Du-Ri (Germany)

    Again, at the point at which players like Bentaleb will become available, they will have spent all of their adult life (and a good percentage of their full life) living and working in Britain, and like many others who choose to come and work here may feel an affinity and want to gain citizenship.

    I don't see any problem with making them aware that they're potentially on the radar for our national team one day. It's the sensible thing to do.
  • RedSparrows 21 Jan 2014 13:28:09 20,738 posts
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    Then we'll have the 'plastic Brits' rubbish again. Which means we'll definitely win loads, going by the 2012 Olympics! Woo! Can't fail!
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