The all-new Premier League thread Page 4135

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  • thedaveeyres 25 Sep 2013 09:14:26 11,596 posts
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    Ferguson isn't an alcoholic, he's just Scottish.

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  • nickthegun 25 Sep 2013 09:16:40 61,325 posts
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    I know its further coddling, but I cant see how/why clubs dont help ex-pro's.

    Bayern took Muller in when he hit the sauce, helped him through rehab and he still coaches there. Its hard to see how someone like newcastle couldnt have go some milage out of being the club that put gazza back on the straight and narrow.

    Same with the likes of Paul McGrath. He was a fucking genius and im sure he would have had something to give Villa but instead he was left to go mad and smear shit on the inside of his car.

    Edited by nickthegun at 09:17:14 25-09-2013

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    My man gives real loving that's why I call him Killer
    He's not a wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am, he's a thriller

  • Deleted user 25 September 2013 09:22:14
    The clubs do get involved. Spurs have given Gazza a huge amount of support and help.

    Mental illness is like physical illness. Some people can be fixed, some sadly can't. I think it's becoming increasingly obvious with Gazza that it can only end badly.
  • nickthegun 25 Sep 2013 09:25:44 61,325 posts
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    His kids said as much last night, to paraphrase 'we cherish every sober moment we have with him because it could easily be his last'.

    I think, with gazza, it was left too long. It was just gazza and his wacky antics until it very suddenly became 'oh fuck, gazza is actually going to kill himself'.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    My man gives real loving that's why I call him Killer
    He's not a wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am, he's a thriller

  • Punctum 25 Sep 2013 09:30:16 1,045 posts
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    I don't think it's arrogant to suggest Gascoigne would of had a better chance at United. He certainly wouldn't have been as indulged as he was at other clubs and if he had stayed perhaps his illness may not of progressed as it has.
  • thedaveeyres 25 Sep 2013 09:32:11 11,596 posts
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    Paul McGrath, Lee Sharp and many others would probably disagree.

    Edited by thedaveeyres at 09:33:00 25-09-2013

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  • Deleted user 25 September 2013 09:38:26
    I think it's extremely arrogant. There's really no reason to believe anything would have been any different whatsoever.
  • Punctum 25 Sep 2013 09:40:02 1,045 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    Same with the likes of Paul McGrath. He was a fucking genius and im sure he would have had something to give Villa but instead he was left to go mad and smear shit on the inside of his car.
    Didn't know that. Awful.
  • Punctum 25 Sep 2013 09:47:13 1,045 posts
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    @kalel

    So lifestyle, environment and vocation cannot act as catalysts for mental illness and alcoholism?

    Or was it too late, even before he left Newcastle?
  • Deleted user 25 September 2013 09:52:32
    Punctum wrote:
    @kalel

    So lifestyle, environment and vocation cannot act as catalysts for mental illness and alcoholism?

    Or was it too late, even before he left Newcastle?
    Look, I don't know him personally, but yes, I'm suggesting that Gazza's issues are pretty fundamental, and also that his alcoholism is really just a result if a bigger issue, not a cause.

    And I do also resent the implication from Fergie that somehow Gazza's issues were neglected or even indulged at Spurs, and he wouldn't have done that. I wonder how Man U fans would react to the suggestion that George Best wouldn't have died if not for Matt Busby's influence?
  • thedaveeyres 25 Sep 2013 09:58:01 11,596 posts
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    Owen Hargreaves used to be one hell of a tap dancer before he signed for Utd.

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  • Punctum 25 Sep 2013 10:28:25 1,045 posts
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    @kalel

    I didn't know about Fergie's implication regarding Spurs being neglectful. If so, that's out of order.

    I do wonder if Gascoigne had the opportunity to stay at a club with the right manager and culture if things would have been different, or as you say, his problems were fundamental and always likely to manifest. I'd like to think what we see now was avoidable. I think he would've had a better chance had he stayed with Venables or if he'd worked with Ferguson.

    A terrible shame really. He was amazing in 91, in the FA Cup, playing away on shitty pitches yet controlling the ball effortlessly, finding players and just playing without fear.
  • Deleted user 25 September 2013 10:37:50
    Just a related side point, I always think it's interesting how and when we choose to assign responsibility or lament the behaviour and problems of certain individuals. You don't see many people expressing regret about how they didn't do more to steer Harold Shipman or Myra Hindley on a better path. How Gary Glitter or Jimmy Saville were just badly and tragically influenced at key points in their development, and what a "shame" it is.

    Not really sure where I'm going with this, but where is the line between when mental illness is tragic, and when we decide that person is evil? It's apparently not even when they start to do damage to others, as Gazza's wife-beating antics rarely get mentioned.
  • nickthegun 25 Sep 2013 10:49:49 61,325 posts
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    I think, partially, because it happens very publically, under everyones noses.

    The public have a very clear delineation between affable, lovely gazza and the appalling wife beater he becomes when he is pissed.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    My man gives real loving that's why I call him Killer
    He's not a wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am, he's a thriller

  • Deleted user 25 September 2013 10:52:08
    We're pretty happy to put Gazza's wife beating down to mental illness though. It's not excusing it so much as blaming the illness, not the man.

    And yet we're very quick to cut our emotional ties with Rolf Harris no matter how loved he was, and how mentally ill he probably is.
  • nickthegun 25 Sep 2013 10:53:40 61,325 posts
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    A pattern of predatory and abusive behaviour is *very* different to having a few pints and slapping around your mrs.

    If gazza had got pissed and nonced up a few kids, we wouldnt even be having this conversation.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    My man gives real loving that's why I call him Killer
    He's not a wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am, he's a thriller

  • Punctum 25 Sep 2013 10:54:56 1,045 posts
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    I think the "line" is with control, or the perception of self control.

    Gascoigne has always appeared childish and immature, so perhaps that fosters a more paternal perception of him and the need to assign responsibility to the people who 'should be looking after him'.

    With Shipman, Glitter, Saville etc they were in positions of authority which they took advantage of, which suggests premeditation and is perhaps easier to dismiss as evil.
  • Deleted user 25 September 2013 10:57:50
    I bet George Best did a bit of drunken noncing.

    Am I allowed to say that?

    Anyway, probably not a conversation for this thread. I do think it's interesting though.
  • President_Weasel 25 Sep 2013 10:59:56 9,665 posts
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    I don't know how much Ferguson's comments were self-regard and how much were genuine regret and sadness at seeing someone he'd admired get into such a state.

    I remember something John Peel said on his show after Kurt Cobain died that touched me deeply at the time, something about when you find out about these things you wish you could have just got them round for a cup of tea and chat and maybe been able to help them.
  • nickthegun 25 Sep 2013 11:13:34 61,325 posts
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    I wasnt massively impressed with everyone jumping on the 'save gazza' bandwagon and then idiots like Ronnie Irani milking it for all its worth.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    My man gives real loving that's why I call him Killer
    He's not a wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am, he's a thriller

  • Deleted user 25 September 2013 11:19:17
    So anyway, Willian is shit yeah?

    lolololol!
  • thedaveeyres 25 Sep 2013 11:24:23 11,596 posts
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    The only person who can save an alcoholic is themselves.

    Anyway, the current top 4 will be the top 4 come the end of the season, though probably not in the order they are in now. DISCUSS.

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  • nickthegun 25 Sep 2013 11:28:43 61,325 posts
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    Thats not really what you would call a 'bold statement'.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    My man gives real loving that's why I call him Killer
    He's not a wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am, he's a thriller

  • thedaveeyres 25 Sep 2013 11:30:18 11,596 posts
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    What a difference a week makes.

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  • captbirdseye 25 Sep 2013 11:45:57 5,467 posts
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    Soldado
    Willian
    Bony
    Brayford
    Aspas
    The whole 25 players Holloway bought

    All look pretty shit.
  • Deleted user 25 September 2013 11:49:26
    Soldado looks great.

    You're confusing how a player looks, with looking at some numbers on a page.
  • teamHAM 25 Sep 2013 11:52:02 3,153 posts
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    Saw a bit of Willian last season when we had Anzhi in the Europa League.

    Thought he looked decidedly average, did basically nothing at all. Reminded me a little of Berbatov, just standing around doing the odd flick casually and raising both arms when it doesn't come off.

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  • captbirdseye 25 Sep 2013 11:52:03 5,467 posts
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    Watched him on Sunday and thought he looked really poor and offered nothing up front for Spurs.
  • Deleted user 25 September 2013 11:56:41
    I remember him having a good moment or two, one which brought out a crucial block from Caulker, and another from Marshall. He was always in the right place for follow-ups and tap ins, which is what he's there for. Didn't come off that day, but his positioning and quick thinking were excellent.
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