The all-new Premier League thread Page 3951

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  • kalel 21 Aug 2013 14:03:49 88,370 posts
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    Feanor wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    It's a slightly odd attitude to feel that the money you spend on seeing your club is somehow an investment, rather than simply buying a product (game tickets, beer etc). Odd, and frankly flawed.

    Do you feel Apple are stealing from you for keeping the profits they've made from you, and distributing it among shareholders and such?
    Apple exists for the sole purpose of making profits. Maybe some football clubs are run that way, but in most cases the owners would be better off putting their money almost anywhere else.
    I realise it's not a perfect analogy, but from the point of view of the consumer, I don't think it's that different. You pay to see a game. You pay to have a beer. You don't see these as investments that you'll want a return on.
  • Dougs 21 Aug 2013 14:07:44 68,379 posts
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    In other news, we are apparently wearing red shirts/blue shorts tonight. Good grief.
  • LeD 21 Aug 2013 14:11:00 6,314 posts
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    Everything's gone wrong then.
  • THFourteen 21 Aug 2013 14:13:02 33,821 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    It's a slightly odd attitude to feel that the money you spend on seeing your club is somehow an investment, rather than simply buying a product (game tickets, beer etc). Odd, and frankly flawed.

    Do you feel Apple are stealing from you for keeping the profits they've made from you, and distributing it among shareholders and such?
    I can choose not to buy apple shit. But there is no choice in being an arsenal fan, its a way of life.

    That's the difference to me.
  • kalel 21 Aug 2013 14:13:56 88,370 posts
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    THFourteen wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    It's a slightly odd attitude to feel that the money you spend on seeing your club is somehow an investment, rather than simply buying a product (game tickets, beer etc). Odd, and frankly flawed.

    Do you feel Apple are stealing from you for keeping the profits they've made from you, and distributing it among shareholders and such?
    I can choose not to buy apple shit. But there is no choice in being an arsenal fan, its a way of life.

    That's the difference to me.
    You can choose not to buy tickets, beer and all the other things you listed.
  • Mr_Sleep 21 Aug 2013 14:20:34 17,178 posts
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    LeD wrote:
    Mate, it's not about losing to Aston Villa, it's about going into that game unprepared, letting a whole summer go past without getting anybody in. Aston Villa went into that game a stronger team than last season, and got rewarded by brushing Arsenal aside. We got into the game a weaker team than last season and got a spanking at home.
    Yeah, that's a fair assessment, perhaps I'm just looking at it from my fandom's perspective. Some of the coverage about it has been all about Arsenal's failure in the match and not about the well drilled and quality play that did happen from Villa's end.

    Also, another thing that has been lost in all the discussion is what a damn entertaining match it was, it may have been a bad result for Arsenal in the end but it was a very entertaining and tight game of football that could have conceivably gone either way if a few things had gone differently. For a neutral it was the kind of match the premiership does very well.

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • The-Bodybuilder 21 Aug 2013 14:25:18 14,278 posts
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    vijay_UK wrote:
    Imagine going put of the CL because of all this early season pressure.
    If that happens, it's not because of the fan pressure, but because of the decisions of Wenger and the board not to invest in the squad, which, ironically enough, is the cause of the fan pressure.

    This whole "blame the fans" things really irks me tbh.

    speedofthepuma wrote:
    There is rarely an unimportant game on the horizon to allow fans to vent frustration without handicapping their team, surely?
    Indeed.
    You can't do it in preseason because its just preseason. You can't do it in-season because it's in-season. You can't do it for a dead rubber match because it's a dead rubber match.

    There's never a good time to ever vent frustration.
  • Mr_Sleep 21 Aug 2013 14:26:26 17,178 posts
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    graysonavich wrote:
    It is possible to enjoy football and not bleed a football team you know. Even if you were born into an era of success.
    :-D

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • Dougs 21 Aug 2013 14:26:32 68,379 posts
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    THFourteen wrote:

    I can choose not to buy apple shit. But there is no choice in being an arsenal fan, its a way of life.

    That's the difference to me.
    But doing so doesn't give us any rights on what the team should/shouldn't do. We can have an opinion, moan, boo, whatever. But it doesn't mean they should take notice if they don't want to. That's what I found laughable about the AST letter.
  • mcmonkeyplc 21 Aug 2013 14:27:14 39,467 posts
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    It's possible but for those of use that do "bleed a football team" it's pretty hard to give up.

    Bit like a drug.

    Maybe.

    I said I couldn't be arsed...

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • The-Bodybuilder 21 Aug 2013 14:29:35 14,278 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Feanor wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    It's a slightly odd attitude to feel that the money you spend on seeing your club is somehow an investment, rather than simply buying a product (game tickets, beer etc). Odd, and frankly flawed.

    Do you feel Apple are stealing from you for keeping the profits they've made from you, and distributing it among shareholders and such?
    Apple exists for the sole purpose of making profits. Maybe some football clubs are run that way, but in most cases the owners would be better off putting their money almost anywhere else.
    I realise it's not a perfect analogy, but from the point of view of the consumer, I don't think it's that different. You pay to see a game. You pay to have a beer. You don't see these as investments that you'll want a return on.
    It's no far fetched. You're essentially pointing out the truth; that we're consumers and we pay to consume the product/services.

    The problem is as consumers, we can complain about the product. You can complain if the product you bought from apple isn't what you were told it would be. You can complain if the service you pay for isn't up to the standard you were promised, and if the company still refuses to improve or listen to it's customers (first rule of any business, arsenal), we can leave.

    Problem is if a fan decides to show their displeasure or threaten to leave, they are ridiculed, labelled as not real fans and told the infamous line of "FFS get behind your team".

    Essentially, it's like being a consumer with none of the benefits and freedom of being a consumer.

    Not sure what it is exactly.
  • THFourteen 21 Aug 2013 14:31:07 33,821 posts
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    Dougs wrote:
    THFourteen wrote:

    I can choose not to buy apple shit. But there is no choice in being an arsenal fan, its a way of life.

    That's the difference to me.
    But doing so doesn't give us any rights on what the team should/shouldn't do. We can have an opinion, moan, boo, whatever. But it doesn't mean they should take notice if they don't want to. That's what I found laughable about the AST letter.
    But why do they need our money to such a massive extent? They dont spend it. I don't want them to spend it! Just make it cheaper to go! Why do Bayern charge 15 quid a game and not 95? They could. Think of the money they'd make!

    It would be like the pope taking everyone's money and just sleeping on a massive pile of it every day

    People would go mental.
  • Mr_Sleep 21 Aug 2013 14:31:57 17,178 posts
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    It's closer to voting in a general election, in that you are basically powerless but by complaining you feel like you have some impact on things but it does nothing and the club does whatever it feels like. The major difference is that it doesn't cost a grand a year to vote in an election.

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • imamazed 21 Aug 2013 14:33:11 5,784 posts
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    THFourteen wrote:
    Dougs wrote:
    THFourteen wrote:

    I can choose not to buy apple shit. But there is no choice in being an arsenal fan, its a way of life.

    That's the difference to me.
    But doing so doesn't give us any rights on what the team should/shouldn't do. We can have an opinion, moan, boo, whatever. But it doesn't mean they should take notice if they don't want to. That's what I found laughable about the AST letter.
    But why do they need our money to such a massive extent? They dont spend it. I don't want them to spend it! Just make it cheaper to go! Why do Bayern charge 15 quid a game and not 95? They could. Think of the money they'd make!

    It would be like the pope taking everyone's money and just sleeping on a massive pile of it every day

    People would go mental.
    ....And yet people do pay 95 every week. 60,000 people. That's the problem.
  • The-Bodybuilder 21 Aug 2013 14:33:22 14,278 posts
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    There was a discussion about this in the arsenal group; what are we? Fans or consumers?

    Because the issue isn't being one or the other, it's that when you try to be a fan, you're derided for it and told to be a consumer. When you try to be a consumer, you're told to be a fan.

    It's like the definition changes to suit whatever argument is being made for that day.

    If we are consumers, then all of us are allowed to also boo the team during their game (they're not happy with the product, it's their right to show they're not happy with it), leave early, just generally act like consumers.

    It's a strange paradox when it really shouldn't be.
  • The-Bodybuilder 21 Aug 2013 14:35:15 14,278 posts
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    THFourteen wrote:
    It would be like the pope taking everyone's money and just sleeping on a massive pile of kids every day

    People would go mental.
    Damn right we would.
  • kentmonkey 21 Aug 2013 14:35:51 20,760 posts
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    People in the marketing world would call it 'Fansumers'.

    Those people should be ignored.
  • Dougs 21 Aug 2013 14:37:21 68,379 posts
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    You are aware of the size of funds available to the Cathlolic Church, right? Religion and football clubs aren't a bad comparison as it goes...
  • THFourteen 21 Aug 2013 14:40:05 33,821 posts
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    But they use it to spread the word and help the poor right? Right? RIGHT?

    OMG that mother Fucking theiving pope!!!!
  • nickthegun 21 Aug 2013 14:43:53 60,435 posts
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    Its a cliche, but the only thing you can do is vote with your feet and give up your season ticket. They do listen eventually.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    My man gives real loving that's why I call him Killer
    He's not a wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am, he's a thriller

  • Dougs 21 Aug 2013 14:45:09 68,379 posts
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    Except there is likely to be someone prepared to fill the shoes for the forseeable. Even given the current "crisis".
  • mcmonkeyplc 21 Aug 2013 14:52:12 39,467 posts
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    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    It's closer to voting in a general election, in that you are basically powerless but by complaining you feel like you have some impact on things but it does nothing and the club does whatever it feels like. The major difference is that it doesn't cost a grand a year to vote in an election.
    No, this is just cynical.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • nickthegun 21 Aug 2013 14:53:37 60,435 posts
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    While that is true, if they see a huge churn and the wait list dwindling, someone will flag that spreadsheet up.

    It happened with us. They noticed attendences dropping and canvassed fans and lapsed season ticket holders about why they had stopped going. Overwhelmingly the answer was 'the tickets are not good VFM', so they introduced a series of initiatives to win them back.

    I appreciate that the process will take *significantly* longer with arsenal but the message will get through.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    My man gives real loving that's why I call him Killer
    He's not a wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am, he's a thriller

  • nickthegun 21 Aug 2013 15:00:53 60,435 posts
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    I once went to a game, after we got relegated when he, on 45k a week, played up front with, iirc, Marvin Robinson who was a trainee on 80 a week.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    My man gives real loving that's why I call him Killer
    He's not a wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am, he's a thriller

  • SolidSCB 21 Aug 2013 15:04:19 6,888 posts
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    I hear odds on Mesut Ozil to United have tumbled dramatically today. This has probably stemmed from some fake twitter crap but at this stage it is the only shred of hope I have that we'll actually fucking sign someone this summer.
  • captbirdseye 21 Aug 2013 15:07:46 5,089 posts
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    Looking forward to Man City destroying us on Sunday and be nice to see some actual quality players down the City Stadium. :D
  • mcmonkeyplc 21 Aug 2013 15:09:07 39,467 posts
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    SolidSCB wrote:
    I hear odds on Mesut Ozil to United have tumbled dramatically today. This has probably stemmed from some fake twitter crap but at this stage it is the only shred of hope I have that we'll actually fucking sign someone this summer.
    Let me help you:

    Stop looking for a new signing.

    Come and get it cumslingers!

  • mikew1985 21 Aug 2013 15:09:19 12,888 posts
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    I think most, including me, will be incredibly surprised if we don't sign Fellaini. Looks nailed on but the real question is why would it take us so bloody long to try to sew that one up.

    We always needed both a Fellaini and a more dynamic Fabregas/Modric type.

    I'm not sure where Ozil quite fits in from that point of view, but what a bloody player and amazing signing that would be (I don't believe it either).

    Edited by mikew1985 at 15:10:02 21-08-2013
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