The all-new Premier League thread Page 3470

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  • TheSaint 23 Apr 2013 10:11:36 14,201 posts
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    They looked like they already had one eye on the beach against West Ham last week. I wouldn't be surprised if Arsenal got something from the game.
  • nickthegun 23 Apr 2013 10:13:20 58,787 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Didn't United get humped by Chelsea after winning the title a few years ago?
    Possibly, but I would bet that if you looked at the team on the pitch, it wasnt for want of trying on fergies behalf.

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    He totally called it

  • Shikasama 23 Apr 2013 10:18:11 6,608 posts
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    TheSaint wrote:
    They looked like they already had one eye on the beach against West Ham last week. I wouldn't be surprised if Arsenal got something from the game.
    After Wenger moaning about playing teams before and after the transfer window being unfair I can't wait to see his thoughts on playing a team who's season is finished.
  • Blaketown 23 Apr 2013 10:19:20 4,636 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Didn't United get humped by Chelsea after winning the title a few years ago?
    They've got humped by worse teams than Chelsea after winning the title in the past, despite Fergie's "disrespectful"/"integrity of the league" comments.

    Remember United fielding loads of kids against West Ham the season Tevez kept them up. In fact I think United & Chelsea both fielded kids the match before and played out a Italian style 0-0 where neither team was interested.

    Edited by Blaketown at 10:19:56 23-04-2013

    Brap, brap, old chap.

  • kalel 23 Apr 2013 10:21:13 86,369 posts
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    Christ.
  • Dougs 23 Apr 2013 10:22:56 66,687 posts
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    President_Weasel wrote:
    Dougs wrote:
    Except that was quite predictable really. We all knew the price of buying the league. Appears to be 24m, for the league's best striker.
    Really? Because Arsene apparently had a 30m transfer fund he didn't use. Why didn't he buy the league with it?

    Rest if the team notwithstanding etc. For Utd, it did seem that simple. They lost the league on goal difference last season, so buying the best striker could only help that. Mancini knew it too, hence why he's so irked by losing out on him.

    I'm all for applauding after the game (I'd be in the pub etc) but before is weird. There's still a game to play with lots at stake FFS
  • kalel 23 Apr 2013 10:25:47 86,369 posts
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    Didn't Mancini simply not go in for RvP in the end?

    Anyway, I think City had the team to win the league if they had got their shit together. They cancelled each other out by winning a game each agianst each other, so RvP shouldn't really have made any difference to City in the end.
  • kalel 23 Apr 2013 10:25:47 86,369 posts
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    Didn't Mancini simply not go in for RvP in the end?

    Anyway, I think City had the team to win the league if they had got their shit together. They cancelled each other out by winning a game each agianst each other, so RvP shouldn't really have made any difference to City in the end.
  • President_Weasel 23 Apr 2013 10:46:23 8,975 posts
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    United's "rest of the team" isn't really that good though. Yes, they've got more money than most of the rest of the division (even with the debt they were saddled with for the 'privilege' of being owned by the Glazers) and the lure of Champion's League football, but man for man the squad aren't all that amazing.
    Ferguson has got a lot out of them this season (although having a seriously good striker in form for much of the season hasn't hurt them either).

    On the other hand, maybe it's his fault that the squad aren't all that - several players appear to have gone backwards or not lived up to their potential (Nani, Ashley Young, Anderson to give three examples). Rooney's on infinity million pounds a week and hasn't looked like an infinity million pounds player - although he had a damn good game last time out.

    If I am going to praise him for forging a 'better than all right, but not amazing' squad into a title winning machine, then surely I should also criticise him for not having a better squad in the first place?
  • Shikasama 23 Apr 2013 10:50:34 6,608 posts
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    How you can criticize a squad that has very literally torn through the league and was beating Real Madrid quite comfortably until a certain incident is quite incredible.

    It's all media narrative.
  • kalel 23 Apr 2013 10:54:02 86,369 posts
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    I think asking whether Mancini or Wenger would have won the league with United's squad is a very interesting one. For me the answer is almost certainly no, particularly if Fergie had City's squad.

    I'd even venture that Fergie would have won the league win any squad from the current top top four. Possibly five.
  • Blotto 23 Apr 2013 10:56:54 2,719 posts
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    I agree with most of what he says just not the conclusion he came to. The team is everything, as Shikasama says, they've torn through the league and had a decent showing in the champions league. How good the players are outside the system is irrelevant because clearly they're doing their job within it pretty damn well.

    It's thinking like that which prevents City and Chelsea from absolutely walking the league.
  • THFourteen 23 Apr 2013 10:58:43 32,863 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    Didn't Mancini simply not go in for RvP in the end?
    Nah, RvP turned them down.
  • nickthegun 23 Apr 2013 10:58:47 58,787 posts
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    Yeah, hes the difference. He has managed to get consistent performances out of a side thats, largely, not good enough to wear the shirt and strolled the league.

    Mancini hasnt managed to do the same with a far better side and has been left trailing.

    Bar RVP and possibly rooney, there isnt another player in Manyoos first team that would get into the citys.

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    He totally called it

  • Blaketown 23 Apr 2013 11:01:53 4,636 posts
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    De Gea has been better than Hart recently.

    Brap, brap, old chap.

  • President_Weasel 23 Apr 2013 11:03:40 8,975 posts
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    That's what I'm saying: the squad's not that great (although I'm pretty sure Vidic could get in to pretty much any team) but the team has been amazing, and that's down to the manager and the mentality he instils in them.
    He's not a godlike managerial genius though, he's made a few missteps and seen some players go backwards over the last couple of years.
  • nickthegun 23 Apr 2013 11:04:41 58,787 posts
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    Blaketown wrote:
    De Gea has been better than Hart recently.
    To be fair, hes not been playing behind kompany.

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    He totally called it

  • kalel 23 Apr 2013 11:08:54 86,369 posts
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    President_Weasel wrote:
    He's not a godlike managerial genius though, he's made a few missteps and seen some players go backwards over the last couple of years.
    I don't know whether the golden generation of Man U youth (Giggs, Beckham, Scholes etc) was just a bit of a magical coincidence, or whether something fundamental has changed in their youth system, but I think a big part of that is the players coming through now, while adequate, are not world class like that lot.

    Combine that with a clear difference in signing policy since the Glazers have come in (even RvP wasn't anything like the signings they used to make in terms of price), and I think Fergie has again done pretty well with what's available to him.
  • nickthegun 23 Apr 2013 11:09:15 58,787 posts
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    President_Weasel wrote:
    He's not a godlike managerial genius though, he's made a few missteps and seen some players go backwards over the last couple of years.
    You know what? He is. He has made a few mistakes, as everyone does, and most of them appear to be due to his own pig-headedness, but hes won 13 titles with united.

    13 titles.

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    He totally called it

  • Dougs 23 Apr 2013 11:09:31 66,687 posts
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    THFourteen wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    Didn't Mancini simply not go in for RvP in the end?
    Nah, RvP turned them down.
    More like he made it abundantly clear he only wanted to join Utd. So, errm, yeah, what you said.

    We beat Utd at the end of the 2011 season after they'd won the league too. Stonker from Ramsey. His last goal, probably.
  • nickthegun 23 Apr 2013 11:10:34 58,787 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    President_Weasel wrote:
    He's not a godlike managerial genius though, he's made a few missteps and seen some players go backwards over the last couple of years.
    I don't know whether the golden generation of Man U youth (Giggs, Beckham, Scholes etc) was just a bit of a magical coincidence, or whether something fundamental has changed in their youth system, but I think a big part of that is the players coming through now, while adequate, are not world class like that lot.
    Its basically the reason Roy Keane got the push, going on MUTV and saying 'the new crop of players are fucking shite'.

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    He totally called it

  • Dougs 23 Apr 2013 11:12:11 66,687 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:

    You know what? He is. He has made a few mistakes, as everyone does, and most of them appear to be due to his own pig-headedness, but hes won 13 titles with united.

    13 titles.
    Aye, churlish to criticise. Can't stand the bloke, but he's head and shoulders the best manager ever in the top flight.
  • kalel 23 Apr 2013 11:12:59 86,369 posts
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    He'd have won the CL with City's squad as well. Probably the triple.
  • President_Weasel 23 Apr 2013 11:15:28 8,975 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    President_Weasel wrote:
    He's not a godlike managerial genius though, he's made a few missteps and seen some players go backwards over the last couple of years.
    You know what? He is. He has made a few mistakes, as everyone does, and most of them appear to be due to his own pig-headedness, but hes won 13 titles with united.

    13 titles.
    Fair enough. I'd say he was a really good manager rather than a godlike genius, but it's quibbling really.
  • nickthegun 23 Apr 2013 11:17:04 58,787 posts
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    I think 'football genius' is probably fair.

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    He totally called it

  • Kay 23 Apr 2013 11:24:20 17,761 posts
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    I'd say he's the best club manager of all time. To have that much success over a sustained period is phenomenal really, and his teams have a knack of always coming back stronger after a blip. And, as many have pointed out, individually most of the Utd players aren't great, but they always do their job as a team and get results.
  • THFourteen 23 Apr 2013 11:25:58 32,863 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    I think 'football genius' is probably fair.
    Agreed.

    And every time people like Beckham or Ronaldo or Nistelrooj have left, he's just gone "yeah whatever" and won the league anyway.
  • Deckard1 23 Apr 2013 11:27:49 27,182 posts
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    He's a filthy old booze hound
  • nickthegun 23 Apr 2013 11:27:56 58,787 posts
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    Its kind of a shame that Wenger couldnt keep the early standard up because that was a great battle initially.

    I suppose thats what separates the great from the good.

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    He totally called it

  • kalel 23 Apr 2013 11:28:21 86,369 posts
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    He probably is the greatest club manager of all time, although there's always a strong claim for people with slightly more challenging circumstances like Brian Clough.

    Also we're very English league centric when we make claims like this, and really the likes of Herrera and Michels earn a shout. If there was one criticism you could make of Fergie is that while he was a trophy machine, he didn't re-invent the game like some of the other greats did. Those who completely revolutionised the game like Michels (and actually Spurs' Bill Nick) are great in a very different and arguably more significant way.

    Edited by kalel at 11:28:53 23-04-2013
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