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  • SolidSCB 22 Mar 2013 17:46:49 6,884 posts
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    10-15 years ago, absolutely. Today, absolutely not.
  • President_Weasel 22 Mar 2013 17:50:58 9,450 posts
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    nickthegun wrote:
    SolidSCB wrote:
    Lol. I love how England are part of 'Europe's elite' all of a sudden. If we did get a properly regulated ranking system in place with the top 10 teams getting automatic spots, England would be nowhere near it and would still be having to qualify against San Marino.
    Yes we would. We win far more than we lose.
    England are a go-out-in-the-quarter-finals (and then be surprised and angry about it, for some reason) team. Roughly the seventh best team in the world, which is pretty good.

    However, according to the ever-predictable national hysteria levels and the amount of time to the next finals they're either about seventh in the world, NAILED ON GUARANTEED TO WIN!, shameful failures and the manager should be murdered, or about seventh in the world.

    Every damn time it's "this time we'll learn", as well.
  • The-Bodybuilder 22 Mar 2013 17:51:33 14,277 posts
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    kalel wrote:
    We're statistically the 9th most successful side in the history of international football. I'd say that just about makes us part of the elite.
    Historically speaking, Liverpool would deem themselves as part of the elite now, or even Blackburn to deem themselves as "historically worthy" to be part of the PL.

    I get what you're saying, my issue is with Nick's point.
    To put it bluntly, as others have pointed out, using the cup finals of this year to prove his point is somewhat bizarre.

    But it this way, he may want England to only want to play with the top teams and not these "losers" like San Marino, yet if all we had was to play with the top teams, I'm sure Germans and Spanish would start complaining about playing crap like England constantly, and would prefer to play against the true elite.

    To summarize; based on Modern History, England aren't elite. Heck even Belgium have a better squad now.
  • SolidSCB 22 Mar 2013 17:54:06 6,884 posts
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    The-Bodybuilder wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    We're statistically the 9th most successful side in the history of international football. I'd say that just about makes us part of the elite.
    Historically speaking, Liverpool would deem themselves as part of the elite now, or even Blackburn to deem themselves as "historically worthy" to be part of the PL.

    I get what you're saying, my issue is with Nick's point.
    To put it bluntly, as others have pointed out, using the cup finals of this year to prove his point is somewhat bizarre.

    But it this way, he may want England to only want to play with the top teams and not these "losers" like San Marino, yet if all we had was to play with the top teams, I'm sure Germans and Spanish would start complaining about playing crap like England constantly, and would prefer to play against the true elite.

    To summarize; based on Modern History, England aren't elite. Heck even Belgium have a better squad now.
    Nailed it.
  • SuperCoolEskimo 22 Mar 2013 18:02:15 9,926 posts
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    I wouldn't say we're part of the elite. We massively overrate our players who then regularly get their pants pulled down at the big tournaments usually by the first half decent team we come up against.

    Can't remember the last time we beat a big footballing nation at a major tournament.
  • kalel 22 Mar 2013 18:09:02 88,339 posts
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    Again, 9th in the world sounds about right to me. Whether you consider that to be elite or not is semantics really.
  • SolidSCB 22 Mar 2013 18:09:44 6,884 posts
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    Our last really decent tournament performance was at Euro 96, a mere 17 years ago. So yeah, we really aren't that relevant anymore when it comes to the business end of tournaments which is why I find this elitism over qualifying for them baffling.
  • Deleted user 22 March 2013 18:11:07
    The business end of tourneys is 8 teams. Seems about right england would be hanging at the arse of that.
  • enfilade 22 Mar 2013 19:05:28 213 posts
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    I'm with Kalel & nickthegun on this one.

    Bradford v Arsenal is still a far more competitive fixture on paper than England v San Marino.

    The number of national teams in the world is limited by the number of nations in the world, whereas the number of club teams is completely unlimited. San Marino, in league terms, are not League 2 equivalent, they're probably closer to 7th-tier English league opposition.

    They are 'allowed' to play the big international teams because they happen to be a country that exists in Europe. But they have no footballing reason to be playing England, or Denmark, or Greece, or Denmark etc. etc.

    I was at Wembley for the game last year, sat at one end. I basically needed binoculars for the second half because the ball was constantly in San Marino's half. The crowd cheered when San Marino managed to force a goal kick by hoofing the ball at Joe Hart.

    It's a complete non-contest.
  • enfilade 22 Mar 2013 19:11:30 213 posts
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    Also, since when have England ever 'had their pants pulled down' at a major tournament in the past few years?

    From recent memory, we were knocked out on penalties to Italy & Portugal, were beaten 4-2 by Germany after having a clear goal chalked off at 2-1 down, and the last time we failed to get past the group stage of a major tournament (that we had entered) in 2000 thanks to Gary Neville making a stupid tackle in the 908th minute against Romania.

    In summary, we consistently make the Top 16 or Top 8 of major tournaments and are only knocked out by other 'elite' teams on the whole, and generally by very fine margins.

    England a Top 10 international side. That's not arrogant, it's pretty much a matter of fact.

    Edit:

    Argentina
    Brazil
    France
    Germany
    Italy
    Portugal
    Spain
    Holland

    There's 8 teams I would put in the 'World Top 10.' Would the naysayers care to suggest two teams who consistently outperform England to put in that list? I can't think of one. We might be 9th or 10th in the list, but we're on the list!

    Edited by enfilade at 19:16:47 22-03-2013
  • Ka-blamo 22 Mar 2013 19:14:57 7,456 posts
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    I think the detractors are just reacting to the over valuation of the England side by so many and the media.

    But that doesn't mean it's okay to do the opposite, it's just as stupid.
  • Blaketown 22 Mar 2013 19:15:23 4,748 posts
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    Yeah, Quarter final is about par for England.

    Worse & they'ver had a poor tournament. Better and they've over-performed.

    It's pretty much always been like that in the modern game.

    I think the discrepancy in how they are being perceived is due to the fact that the failure when it comes is no longer glorious. It's limp and pathetic.

    Brap, brap, old chap.

  • enfilade 22 Mar 2013 19:17:28 213 posts
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    England are basically the international equivalent of Arsenal ;)
  • ecu 22 Mar 2013 19:19:36 77,014 posts
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    That was Phil Neville, not Gary.

    Anyway, I find it weird how people of other nationalities project England fans as arrogant, despite the fact that virtually no England fan is. Quarter finals is about our level and we all know it.
  • RobTheBuilder 22 Mar 2013 19:20:03 6,521 posts
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    enfilade wrote:
    England are basically the international equivalent of Arsenal ;)
    *shudder* ...
  • Blaketown 22 Mar 2013 19:20:12 4,748 posts
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    enfilade wrote:
    England are basically the international equivalent of Arsenal ;)
    Nah, past glories are way too long ago.

    They are Liverpool.

    Brap, brap, old chap.

  • enfilade 22 Mar 2013 19:23:54 213 posts
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    ecureuil wrote:
    That was Phil Neville, not Gary.

    Anyway, I find it weird how people of other nationalities project England fans as arrogant, despite the fact that virtually no England fan is. Quarter finals is about our level and we all know it.
    Gah, I wasn't sure which one it was and thought I'd try and bluff it.

    Part of our reputation probably has something to do with our press, who ask every foreigner at a press conference why they think England keep 'underperforming' or why they haven't won a major tournament since '66. Just in the same way that every tennis commentator for the past 8 years has made their first question to anyone listening 'why hasn't Andy Murray won a Grand Slam?'
  • Trowel 22 Mar 2013 19:25:57 17,903 posts
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    ecureuil wrote:
    That was Phil Neville, not Gary.

    Anyway, I find it weird how people of other nationalities project England fans as arrogant, despite the fact that virtually no England fan is. Quarter finals is about our level and we all know it.
    Typical English.
  • enfilade 22 Mar 2013 19:26:25 213 posts
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    Blaketown wrote:
    enfilade wrote:
    England are basically the international equivalent of Arsenal ;)
    Nah, past glories are way too long ago.

    They are Liverpool.
    I thought that, but then Arsenal consistently make the CL without winning anything much like we always make the quarters/last 16. Liverpool can look at a Top 8 finish as a good result these days...
  • Deleted user 22 March 2013 19:28:57
    Its 100% the media for me. Obviously living where I do I don't have much contact with England fans so my gauge of them is on here and you all mostly seem fine.
  • Dougs 22 Mar 2013 19:40:36 68,375 posts
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    ecureuil wrote:
    That was Phil Neville, not Gary.

    I still haven't got over that. We were meant to be staying another night, we drove straight home. My (begged) ticket was free and I still felt cheated!
  • SolidSCB 22 Mar 2013 19:49:00 6,884 posts
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    aaaaand this ITV coverage perfectly highlights why I can't stomach anything to do with England. Smug as fuck when it's some team of journeymen they can stick a few past. Then whining like little bitches, pulling the excuses out of the bag and questioning just how this could have happened when the big boys do the same to them.

    I'd love it if San Marino pulled something off here, love it.

    /Keegan
  • enfilade 22 Mar 2013 19:55:29 213 posts
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    I still remember when we beat Jamaica 5-0 in a friendly soon after Steve McLaren and the pundits were absolutely falling over themselves to laud England's new saviour.

    Seem a lot of them have shorter memories than me...

    Edited by enfilade at 19:55:49 22-03-2013
  • nickthegun 22 Mar 2013 20:12:14 60,422 posts
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    kentmonkey wrote:
    Your point also seems to scattergun around the more you're challenged on it. As does your ability to not post aggressively, just because people aren't agreeing.

    "Im not saying we should do this, by the way. Im just saying this evenings match and others like it are absolutely fucking pointless. "

    And then "I would be in favour of a seeding system that lets the fifa top ten avoid having to fuck around with them".
    I dont see why those two things are mutually exclusive. Im not saying 'this is the way it should be done' but I would be in favour of something that mad what im suggesting happen.

    And also, hats off to everyone who has spectacularly missed the point of the cup thing.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    My man gives real loving that's why I call him Killer
    He's not a wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am, he's a thriller

  • Syrette 22 Mar 2013 22:53:33 43,744 posts
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    Love this guy.



    Edited by Syrette at 22:55:01 22-03-2013

  • caligari 23 Mar 2013 00:05:32 17,075 posts
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    Sooo...Norwich have agreed to sign Van Wolfswinkel?

    I'll be stunned if that goes through - it makes a chance to us plundering the lower leagues for our talent. :-O

    I can't imagine LFMartins being too happy about that news.
  • TheSaint 23 Mar 2013 00:47:06 14,602 posts
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    Why do Sky insist on paying Paul Merson to appear on their shows? He makes ITV analysis look insightful.
  • Syrette 23 Mar 2013 01:24:02 43,744 posts
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    caligari wrote:
    Sooo...Norwich have agreed to sign Van Wolfswinkel?

    I'll be stunned if that goes through - it makes a chance to us plundering the lower leagues for our talent. :-O

    I can't imagine LFMartins being too happy about that news.
    Yup, taken advantage of Sporting's financial state, fair play to them. No other club took the initiative to get him in on a pre-contract.

  • teamHAM 23 Mar 2013 07:54:05 3,042 posts
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    Syrette wrote:
    caligari wrote:
    Sooo...Norwich have agreed to sign Van Wolfswinkel?

    I'll be stunned if that goes through - it makes a chance to us plundering the lower leagues for our talent. :-O

    I can't imagine LFMartins being too happy about that news.
    Yup, taken advantage of Sporting's financial state, fair play to them. No other club took the initiative to get him in on a pre-contract.
    We've been watching Ricky for about 3 years. Afaik we haven't actually made an official move for him yet and there is probably a reason for that. We seem to be pretty interested in Aubameyang now rather than van Wolfswinkel.

    XBox Live, Origin, PSN and Steam: teamHAM

  • caligari 23 Mar 2013 08:24:55 17,075 posts
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    Still seems a little risky. We're not exactly safe in the league.

    We'll see what happens - I'll believe it when I see him holding up that Norwich shirt.

    Even stranger are the links to Weimann at Villa. Great player, but I can't see Lambert letting one of his best players walk off to his old club.
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