The all-new Premier League thread Page 3355

  • Page

    of 4940 First / Last

  • Mr_Sleep 20 Mar 2013 11:31:39 16,280 posts
    Seen 6 hours ago
    Registered 12 years ago
    It's not just asset, one has to consider how many fans and shirt sales are going to be attracted by certain players. No one buys a shirt with Ferguson on the back.

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • Dougs 20 Mar 2013 11:45:36 64,963 posts
    Seen 3 hours ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    No but lots of these players go to these clubs because of who the manager is. Dunno what the big fuss is myself. As mentioned, I'd Ferguson is paid less (and who really knows, same with all these salary stories), then he's clearly underpaid.
  • kalel 20 Mar 2013 11:50:03 84,037 posts
    Seen 6 hours ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    It's very hard to quantify value to the club as they're not directly comparable, but it seems to me that the value in monetary terms that the likes of Fergie and Mourinho bring is very much comparable with Ronaldo and Rooney, if not more so, as there's a whole ipso facto thing with these players wanting to play for these managers in the first place.
  • kentmonkey 20 Mar 2013 11:56:02 20,092 posts
    Seen 5 hours ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    Ooh, I agreed with Shik. Now I agree with kalel. Keep debating - this is good.
  • Mr_Sleep 20 Mar 2013 11:57:48 16,280 posts
    Seen 6 hours ago
    Registered 12 years ago
    kentmonkey wrote:
    Ooh, I agreed with Shik. Now I agree with kalel. Keep debating - this is good.
    Clearly I mean nothing to you! /huff

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • nickthegun 20 Mar 2013 11:58:52 56,034 posts
    Seen 5 hours ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    Its also one of the reasons why everton, despite being one of the 'poorer' premiership teams have made moyes one of the best paid managers in the league. Hes arguably their most valuable asset.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    He totally called it

  • kentmonkey 20 Mar 2013 12:21:15 20,092 posts
    Seen 5 hours ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    kentmonkey wrote:
    Ooh, I agreed with Shik. Now I agree with kalel. Keep debating - this is good.
    Clearly I mean nothing to you! /huff
    I thought it went without saying that I agreed with you, as your point was so well made.

    (how did I do?)
  • Mr_Sleep 20 Mar 2013 12:30:20 16,280 posts
    Seen 6 hours ago
    Registered 12 years ago
    kentmonkey wrote:
    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    kentmonkey wrote:
    Ooh, I agreed with Shik. Now I agree with kalel. Keep debating - this is good.
    Clearly I mean nothing to you! /huff
    I thought it went without saying that I agreed with you, as your point was so well made.

    (how did I do?)
    I am appeased.

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • kentmonkey 20 Mar 2013 12:32:28 20,092 posts
    Seen 5 hours ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    \o/
  • Shikasama 20 Mar 2013 12:41:06 6,287 posts
    Seen 5 hours ago
    Registered 5 years ago
    kalel wrote:
    It's very hard to quantify value to the club as they're not directly comparable, but it seems to me that the value in monetary terms that the likes of Fergie and Mourinho bring is very much comparable with Ronaldo and Rooney, if not more so, as there's a whole ipso facto thing with these players wanting to play for these managers in the first place.
    I agree that the manager is part of the package, but we are talking about the worlds leading clubs - it is unlikely they won't have a high profile manager. I think a succesfull Man Utd could still sign a Robin Van Persie if Ferguson wasn't there and another high profile manager was.

    Especially when you consider that often the manager will be at the club for less time than the player. Even if you pay a manager off when they walk, it's a couple of million at most.

    Now, if Ferguson/Mourinho/Souness were at Southampton then obviously their presence would be a much bigger factor. Having said that though, they still wouldn't be 'transferred' for the same amount as your 20, 30 million pound player.

    If I knew that the club would bank X millions (on top of all of the money they earn through my very presence in terms of success/sponsorship) I'd want money to reflect that.

    I think Chelsea are probably a pretty good example of the relative worth of a manager at a "top" club compared to the on the pitch stars.
  • nickthegun 20 Mar 2013 12:44:18 56,034 posts
    Seen 5 hours ago
    Registered 8 years ago
    To repeat a stat, Abromovic has spent more on managers than Everton have spent on players (net) since the start of the premier league.

    ---------------------------------------------------------
    He totally called it

  • kentmonkey 20 Mar 2013 12:44:47 20,092 posts
    Seen 5 hours ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    Liverpool are the best team in the world. Rodgers isn't high profile.

    ;o)
  • kalel 20 Mar 2013 12:46:41 84,037 posts
    Seen 6 hours ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    Hmmmmm, surely Chelsea is a good example of my point? In retrospect Mourinho was actually far more important to their success (particularly their financial success) than any of their big money players, particularly when you consider the likes of Torres and Shevchenko. In terms of worth, Chelsea demonstrate manager>players no?

    I suppose the comparatively lower paid Di Matteo and his CL trophy potentially scuppers that theory, but that's obviously an anomaly.
  • THFourteen 20 Mar 2013 12:47:51 31,837 posts
    Seen 4 hours ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    nickthegun wrote:
    To repeat a stat, Abromovic has spent more on managers than Everton have spent on players (net) since the start of the premier league.
    yeah but i reckon i've spent more on pies than Everton have spent on players in the last 20 years.
  • graysonavich 20 Mar 2013 12:54:34 6,820 posts
    Seen 36 minutes ago
    Registered 4 years ago
    Aston Villa have more points in Premiership history than Everton have spent on Abromovics pies.
  • kentmonkey 20 Mar 2013 13:00:27 20,092 posts
    Seen 5 hours ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    In terms of numbers, nickthegun's forum post count is higher than Everton's average attendance figures.

    Boom. Thread ends.
  • Mr_Sleep 20 Mar 2013 13:04:39 16,280 posts
    Seen 6 hours ago
    Registered 12 years ago
    I think you'll find the stat is that Aston Villa and Everton, since the start of the league, have consumed more pies than any other top flight club.

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • THFourteen 20 Mar 2013 13:05:50 31,837 posts
    Seen 4 hours ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    Spurs have eaten more humble pies than any other team in the league.
  • kentmonkey 20 Mar 2013 13:06:51 20,092 posts
    Seen 5 hours ago
    Registered 9 years ago
    Spurs' allergy to Lasagne is more severe than any other team in the Premier League.
  • Shikasama 20 Mar 2013 13:08:37 6,287 posts
    Seen 5 hours ago
    Registered 5 years ago
    kalel wrote:
    Hmmmmm, surely Chelsea is a good example of my point? In retrospect Mourinho was actually far more important to their success (particularly their financial success) than any of their big money players, particularly when you consider the likes of Torres and Shevchenko. In terms of worth, Chelsea demonstrate manager>players no?

    I suppose the comparatively lower paid Di Matteo and his CL trophy potentially scuppers that theory, but that's obviously an anomaly.
    In football terms you're absolutely correct, but they couldn't have 'sold' Mourinho for 35 million no matter how many trophies he won. In a purely business sense his individual worth to the club was less than a player they could sell for 25 million like Robben.

    So you say that surely the money recouped from winning those trophies more than made up for the lack of a 'transfer fee' and you'd have a great point. However then you have to look at increasingly intangible things like backroom staff, individual payers etc etc Chelsea (and a raft of other top clubs) have gone on to be successful when a top manager leaves and is replaced.

    Note them being able to shift the likes of Zhirkov and Bridge for 12 million each.

    Edited by Shikasama at 13:09:47 20-03-2013
  • kalel 20 Mar 2013 13:30:32 84,037 posts
    Seen 6 hours ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    But the fee you can sell for is negated by the fee you pay in the first place in many cases. Sometimes in fact you make a huge loss on a player (again, Chelsea are a great example).
  • Shikasama 20 Mar 2013 13:35:14 6,287 posts
    Seen 5 hours ago
    Registered 5 years ago
    Aye that is something I hadn't considered actually. It probably means Mr_Sleep's point about sponsorship and whatnot is more pertinent than the transfer fees.
  • kalel 20 Mar 2013 13:38:09 84,037 posts
    Seen 6 hours ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    Possibly, although as per your point about how some clubs have enough prestige to attract big players whatever manager they have, you could argue something similar about clubs getting sponsorship.

    To be honest I think we might be arguing around not much as the fees these managers get does actually seem to be line with most players. It's more that some players get paid far too much (Rooney) and some appear to be getting paid too little (Fergie).
  • Shikasama 20 Mar 2013 13:48:44 6,287 posts
    Seen 5 hours ago
    Registered 5 years ago
    Yeah I'm finding it tough to get my feelings about it to make any sort of coherent sense.

    On one hand I believe that manager should be the highest salaried individual at the club because they have (ostensibly) the most influence and should be the biggest factor between success and failure.

    On the other, that clearly isn't true at most clubs and players just feel more 'valuable' to me in the current climate, hence their wages. I view them as business assets on a balance sheet because they seem to have such a clear 'worth' (i.e. they have a transfer value)

    I can't even reconcile my own opinion consistently!
  • Shikasama 20 Mar 2013 15:20:06 6,287 posts
    Seen 5 hours ago
    Registered 5 years ago
    We actually bored the premier league thread into silence
  • kalel 20 Mar 2013 15:26:15 84,037 posts
    Seen 6 hours ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    \o/
  • Dougs 20 Mar 2013 15:30:41 64,963 posts
    Seen 3 hours ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    Yeah, that was rubbish. Being the interlull ( Arseblog), there's not much else to talk about though.
  • Mr_Sleep 20 Mar 2013 15:47:34 16,280 posts
    Seen 6 hours ago
    Registered 12 years ago
    Shikasama wrote:
    Yeah I'm finding it tough to get my feelings about it to make any sort of coherent sense.

    On one hand I believe that manager should be the highest salaried individual at the club because they have (ostensibly) the most influence and should be the biggest factor between success and failure.
    This would absolutely be true if football wasn't about the product and the product is largely the players. While success stems from the manager, the shirt sales, sponsorship and fame on the world stage of the club comes a great deal from the players. There are exceptions to this such as Mourinho, of course. As I say, shirt sales is massive, the amount that Beckham netted Man Utd is probably nowhere near what they paid him in wages.

    Football is more like having the talent in a business being the most important thing rather than the CEO. Yet the CEO gets treated like any other business, in that he gets sacked when things go wrong and the players hide away.

    You are a factory of sadness.

  • kalel 20 Mar 2013 15:53:40 84,037 posts
    Seen 6 hours ago
    Registered 11 years ago
    I remember reading somewhere that the whole shirt sales thing is a slight myth, or at least significantly overplayed, but I can't find any numbers to back it up.

    And that goes double for what I'm about to say, as this is really just a gut feeling that I can't support with numbers, but I strongly suspect that Man U's massive revenue over the last twenty years has had more to do with the success Fergie has brought them than anything else. I really do find it very surprising how low is salary is comparatively. And yes, it may well be supplemented with bonuses but still, I'm sure everyone else gets those also.
  • Shikasama 20 Mar 2013 15:55:05 6,287 posts
    Seen 5 hours ago
    Registered 5 years ago
    Mr_Sleep wrote:
    Football is more like having the talent in a business being the most important thing rather than the CEO. Yet the CEO gets treated like any other business, in that he gets sacked when things go wrong and the players hide away.
    I pretty much agree with everything you just said although the abve scenario is not too unusual. Having worked in sales for a few years I comfortably earned more than my bosses in commission and stuff. It's the same in banks and shit as well I think.

    Not to detract from the actual point you were making though, I'm just bored.
  • Page

    of 4940 First / Last

Log in or register to reply