Narrative games: what's more important gameplay or story?

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  • 2099net 24 Oct 2010 09:39:01 20 posts
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    While I can still enjoy "arcade" style games, as I get older I'm finding that I'm drawn more and more towards narrative based games.

    However, being "older" I'm finding some of these games harder and harder to finish. For example I've played, enjoyed and finished all of the Silent Hill games, apart from Silent Hill Homecoming.

    I'm aware that many people consider this game to have issues, but I've been unable to experience most of them, being stuck about 1/3rd of the way through. What makes it worse is that many people have stated that this game is one of the easier Silent Hills do to the emphasis towards combat the main character possesses.

    But I can't get any further in the game than I was over a year ago, despite trying every few weeks or so! I think I've pieced together some of the story, but I have no way of knowing if I'm right or wrong apart from reading a FAQ, something I'm loathe to do as I wish to experience the story first-hand. I find it most disappointing, because surely a narrative driven game should give everybody a chance to experience the narrative for themselves?

    In many respects, it's stupid - no other form of entertainment actually stops you from getting to the end of the story. Can you imagine a Dan Brown book where you yourself have to solve the problems and puzzles yourself before you can conclude the story? Do you think that would end up as an International Best Seller, or do you think people just wouldn't bother?

    While I can appreciate that many people do want a challenge when playing their games, other people don't. I always consider the actually narrative to be more important than the gameplay in story driven games.

    I think the problem is people today are obsessed with the "length" of games. I've experienced this first hand from people who whizz through games like the Silent Hill series or Bioshock and are only bothered with finishing the game as quickly as possible. Of course, in the process they miss out on all the rich detail and atmosphere that these games strive to create.

    I've seen many people complain that you can complete Bioshock simply by using the wrench and the electro-shock power. But they're totally missing the point. You can complete levels of Super Mario Bros by running along the top - but people don't. The whole point of the game is to immerse yourself into the narrative/atmosphere.

    So they could make games like Silent Hill: Homecoming easier (or at least have an easier option or some other form of assistance). It wouldn't necessarily break the game. Even if it meant competent players could breeze through the game in a matter of a few hours. Because such players wouldn't be getting the full experience anyway. It doesn't matter how long or how hard a game is, if the player only decides to partake in half the game or less.
  • Cosmopolitan 24 Oct 2010 11:06:36 1,585 posts
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    2099net wrote:
    You can complete levels of Super Mario Bros by running along the top - but people don't. The whole point of the game is to immerse yourself into the narrative/atmosphere.
    That's a good one.

    The Master of Unlocking.

  • Fozzie_bear 24 Oct 2010 11:18:34 15,167 posts
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    The problem with most stories in games is that they're embarassingly bad.

    Either just do a token story as an excuse to link your levels together or do something properly. The worst of all worlds is a poor story stretched out through interminable cutscenes with dreadful dialogue.

    I loved AC2, but by the end I'd completely given up even trying to work out what the hell was going on. And that was before the near-immortal, elderly, spaceman ninja-vicar from the future or whoever he was turned up.

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  • OnlyMe 24 Oct 2010 11:25:31 3,096 posts
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    It's not so black and white. I think they complement eachother to a much larger degree than people generally think. Gameplay is always important, but it's not an on-off situation. If the narrative is pure brilliance of epic proportions, the gameplay can easily be less than stellar to be accepted. Proof of this is Planescape Torment. The clue here is to make the gameplay not stand in the way of progressing through the story. It just needs to not get in the way of your enjoyment of the story. It doesn't need to be fantastic, it just needs to work.

    So in short, if the gameplay is lacking, the story needs to make up for it. If the story is lacking, it's vice versa. That's as close to a rule you can get - though it's a very vague one. To make it even more confusing is that, imo, atmosphere and music can often be just as big of a factor as gameplay and story.
  • Deleted user 24 October 2010 11:34:31
    Fozzie_bear wrote:
    The problem with most stories in games is that they're embarassingly bad.

    Either just do a token story as an excuse to link your levels together or do something properly. The worst of all worlds is a poor story stretched out through interminable cutscenes with dreadful dialogue.
    Yep I agree 100%

    Basically that's what we get most of the time. The worst of all worlds. Even something Like Enslaved which was hyped on its Characterisation ended up pretty weak in that regard. Seemingly there aren't many talented writers about so I'd rather they concentrate on gameplay. Oh and learn where to put your cutscenes as well, even the mighty Vanquish pops up cutscenes with annoying regularity. Honestly I blame sections of the gaming press (mostly American press) for this. They really bang on endlessly about the strengths of a games story even when they're reviewing a mindless action game.
  • Nozzinja 24 Oct 2010 11:42:03 205 posts
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    OP You have some good points.

    Personally I buy games mainly for the gameplay as I feel the story in most games can be quite bad.

    I don't have an issue with game length to be honest, my main issue is re-playability in modern games. I remember the early days when once you complete a game you'd unlock new skins/characters/cheats that could change the way the game could be played through again, not many games are designed that way any more..

    Also are you against playing through a game with a strategy guide?
  • Inertia 24 Oct 2010 12:01:41 562 posts
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    I think it's more the universe and the details of settings that immerse people more than a story that moves you from level to level. Games like Halo have great detail and setting but quite poor story really. Mario has a very definite world and style which keeps it consistent through 20 years of games.

    But the manner you play a game is not suitable for good storytelling generally. Events are triggered at certain points after bursts of action whereas the pace of a movie or novel is better created for every viewer or reader. As the pace is controlled better by the medium.

  • hiddenranbir 24 Oct 2010 12:18:33 5,476 posts
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    Well I think it depends if the story complements the game-play you have. I've always disagreed with such a linearly focused story in ME to offer you side quests. The story pushes nothing but pace and tension and the side-questing undermines that whole thing for me. World is in danger? Cool, I'll just help some nobody, the galaxy will be on pause for me. Oblivion probably highlighted more; the story it made you go through, the interactions between the people in relation to that story did not serve the sandbox nature of the game. "What imminent invasion?"

    And then there is Spaaaaaaace Rangers 2; that manage to have the story and game complement each other perfectly.
  • dsmx 24 Oct 2010 12:53:51 6,861 posts
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    A good story will suck players in so they care less if the rest of the game is a bit wonky, however good gameplay will allow people to overlook the story being totally shit.

    Also writing a good story is a lot cheaper than creating a brilliant graphics engine and gameplay to match so why games companies insist on giving us ever more shiny graphics engines seems insane to me.

    "If we hit that bullseye the rest of the dominoes will fall like a a house of cards, checkmate." Zapp Brannigan

  • the_dudefather 24 Oct 2010 13:09:24 8,110 posts
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    For me, games tend to have interesting settings/universes more than interesting stories, which is usually enough to keep me engaged.

    Ask me anything about Dungeon Keeper

  • King_Edward 24 Oct 2010 13:11:44 9,316 posts
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    Gameplay always. I like a good story, but I won't play through hours of bad gameplay to get it.
  • Genji 24 Oct 2010 13:17:49 19,691 posts
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    Both of them are important. You can have an exciting action game that also has a good story, and an RPG that has awesome gameplay. It doesn't have to be either/or.
  • 2099net 24 Oct 2010 13:29:49 20 posts
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    Many people are bringing up the quality of the story. Well, I'll agree in most cases game stories are not brilliant. But I'm addressing specifically narrative based games.

    I have greatly enjoyed all of the Silent Hill games I have played and completed. Even Silent Hill 3 in which the narrative "twist" was pretty much sign-posted from the early game previews.

    However, I am unable to enjoy the narrative of Silent Hill Homecoming because I can't progress beyond a certain point. It's not a puzzle issue, but a reaction issue. I personally think the Silent Hill games have begun to rely on combat far too much, and this would seem to prove my point. I CAN'T GET TO THE END OF THE STORY!

    I doubt a strategy guide would help, because I know what to do, I just can't do it. Plus, if I get a strategy guide, I suspect the temptation to peek at the ending will be too strong to resist. I do not want the story spoiled for me by finding out third-hand.

    The whole point is, I have invested time and effort into examining every detail, noting every note, exploring every area and immersing myself in the atmosphere - all for nothing it seems.

    I pick on Silent Hill Homecoming, but this is by far the only title to suffer from the same problem.
  • Accordi0n 24 Oct 2010 13:50:02 1,075 posts
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    Gameplay should be the story.

    REZ, MGS2, Ico and Shadow of the Colossus are perfect examples of this.

    In each game, the player is directed to become the protagonist. Not just pushing an actor through a scene, but mirroring the emotions of the character.





  • Lawrens 24 Oct 2010 14:22:54 398 posts
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    Games with a heavy focus on story should have a good story, games like mgs, alan wake, heavy rain, and rpgs.
    For action games, it's good to have both, but if the story is usually just the typical point A > point B cutscene scenario that has little to do with gameplay, then there is a problem: if the story doesn't hook me, or if I simply don't care about it, I need great gameplay to get me hooked, if it's shallow and boring, then I may as well trash the game.

    It's usually a really a big risk to buy anything with shitty gameplay that sell just on story alone, and half of the time it backfires for me because there isn't a demo to try, and I have the misconception that the game will be "fun" to play even if I don't like the story, most of the time it's not the case, and the game offered me nothing.

    In rpgs, especially jrpgs, there's usually really crappy writing and scenarios, but if it's done right, I get something out of it: exploration, characters, npcs will often give me tiny information and hints on the world view, or just some things to think about, I always get something out of them if they're a big game, I'll find something I like, but for short games like action adventure, there's the problem I mentioned above, so I usually values gameplay more.
  • Raiko101 24 Oct 2010 21:36:34 3,883 posts
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    I'm also one for gameplay. I look for narrative elsewhere. I always find myself getting into arguements about stories in video games. A lot of people enjoy them, wheras I find they're mostly rubbish. The only games I ever play for the story are RPG's and thats usually because the gameplay involves clicking on various options for the most part, rather than the stories being anything amazing or interesting.

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  • RyanDS 24 Oct 2010 21:43:07 7,625 posts
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    I just miss cheats. Whatever fucker decided to stop adding invincibility modes etc into games deserves to be shot.

    If I am stuck in Resistance 2 (which I have paid money for) and am not affecting anyone elses games (ie not playing multiplayer) then I cannot see a single valid reason for not having a cheat available.
  • TechnoHippy 24 Oct 2010 21:47:34 14,256 posts
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    For me it's the experience of a game, that can be gameplay, story or a combination of both. For example I enjoyed playing through MW2, the story was batshit crazy, but as a series of set pieces I still enjoyed the game.

    I do think good gameplay can rescue a bad story more easily than a good story can rescue bad gameplay. Although this was the case for the first Kane & Lynch. Terrible game, but the story and characters were good enough for me to see it to the end.

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  • MistaGav 24 Oct 2010 22:50:22 90 posts
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    The problem I think with storytelling in videogames is that most of the development team are skilled in creating video games in their desired field rather than story tellers. Also the fact that a game is made up of hundreds of people where a book/film is usually created by one person at the very top.
    To highlight this the creators of Enslaved had to turn to a book for their 'adaptation' in what most people are considering the best story based game of the year. Even then most of the story has to be told through the gameplay so in some sort of weird conclusion I do think that Gameplay has to come first...
  • schnide 25 Oct 2010 12:06:18 83 posts
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    Accordi0n wrote:
    Gameplay should be the story.

    REZ, MGS2, Ico and Shadow of the Colossus are perfect examples of this.

    In each game, the player is directed to become the protagonist. Not just pushing an actor through a scene, but mirroring the emotions of the character.
    This isn't the be-all and end-all but essentially the point above distills it for me. Gameplay should always - always - be more important than the story if we're going to put it that definitively, because if there's more story than gameplay you're watching (or "playing";) an interactive film.

    In a game, a story can support gameplay, but gameplay cannot support a story - otherwise, it's not a game.
  • GundamJehutyKai 25 Oct 2010 12:13:29 22 posts
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    The bottom line for me is that Gameplay should be above story for the majority of games. Things like RPGs are exceptions but action games should provide enticing gameplay to make you come back for more and the story should be secondary. Case in point, Vanquish has an awful plot but the gameplay is so much fun I've been playing it pretty much non stop!

    On the other side, I don't know how or why Enslaved is getting as much praise as it does. Every review pretty much reads "story is fantastic, gameplay is sub-par. high score!"
    I got bored playing the game at the Eurogamer expo!!!
  • Big-Swiss 25 Oct 2010 12:16:02 7,781 posts
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    ryandsimmons wrote:
    I just miss cheats. Whatever fucker decided to stop adding invincibility modes etc into games deserves to be shot.

    If I am stuck in Resistance 2 (which I have paid money for) and am not affecting anyone elses games (ie not playing multiplayer) then I cannot see a single valid reason for not having a cheat available.

    I think this whole Cheat business stopped, when the achievement/trophy business started.
    they probably don't want to give players the opportunity to cheat the trophies.

    Does make sence a bit! But I agree, I used to enjoy cheating stuff too in earlier days.
  • Notallowedhere 26 Oct 2010 13:26:37 94 posts
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    This isn't the be-all and end-all but essentially the point above distills it for me. Gameplay should always - always - be more important than the story if we're going to put it that definitively, because if there's more story than gameplay you're watching (or "playing";) an interactive film.

    In a game, a story can support gameplay, but gameplay cannot support a story - otherwise, it's not a game.
    What is Heavy Rain in your opinion? Just had a similar conversation in the office, Is it a game at all?

    Uncharted 2 is the best writing in a game i've played over the past few years, by that i include characterisation rather than just simple 'story'. The Story or narritive itself is more Dan Brown than Booker prize but was thoroughly enjoyable, just far fetched enough without the need to have to reimagine the universe, which is often a problem for me with the millions of sci-fi universes that exist in games.

    Infact my point is probably going to link to another thread that game designers should make games with a narritive impossible not to finish if the gamer wishes to finish it, an intellegent difficulty curve if people are stuck at any point? Nothing more frustrating than not being able to finish the story.
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