What religion are you? Page 18

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  • RobTheBuilder 13 Jan 2013 14:29:28 6,521 posts
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    elstoof wrote:
    kalel wrote:
    This is a strawman. No war has ever been fought "purely" over one thing. So what? Are we saying that faith isn't a major factor in lots of wars? Because it is.
    The point is Rob the builder claims atheism is good and religion is bad because religion apparently causes war. It's a factor, certainly, but not the defining reason for the millions of deaths he points out.
    Let's just be clear. I did not say that.
    You said what's wrong with belief and I said about the people who have died and wars caused by beliefs. It's of course not the only factor, but it doesn't mean it's not a key part.

    As an agnostic it would be hypocritical to say atheism or religion are better/worse than each other. However, militant atheism is merely annoying, whereas militant religious belief causes serious issues.

    I wish we could all just accept each others beliefs and respect our rights to choose.

    Edited by RobTheBuilder at 14:32:02 13-01-2013
  • Khanivor 13 Jan 2013 14:38:09 40,380 posts
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    Actualy AQ got its thang on because they viewed the US presence in Saudi after the Gulf War as a grave insult.

    You can argue about the geo political system and its ramifications all you want but the lad trying to blow up a plane with his explosive knackers isn't being motivated by that.

    Look at the conflict in Mali. Would it be going the way it is if the goal wasn't to impose a religious belief on an entire people?

    You can even argue that if removed the religious aspect from the equation then the Nazis would not have got the required leverage to get WW2 under way. Even if they had we would not have seen the current situation concerning fighting over Israel as it wouldn't have existed.

    Religion may not be the sole cause of war - nothing ever is - but to pretend its impact on human conflict is only in theatrics is militantly dishonest.
  • RobTheBuilder 13 Jan 2013 14:40:40 6,521 posts
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    On this topic, I hope we all agree that Israel's current actions in the West Bank are disgraceful.
  • Mola_Ram 13 Jan 2013 14:41:55 6,958 posts
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    But wars have been fought over "beliefs" that have nothing to do with religion. If it wasn't religion it would be some other excuse to give to the rubes while you grab land and money.

    The fear of death thing, though, is a fair point. But, again, people can be martyrs for non-religious causes. Glory of the revolution and all that. And I'd say most people still fear death, religious or no - it's only a minority of nutters who would actually go blow themselves up for Allah or whatever.

    I remember reading about a kamikaze survivor (he missed a frigate and flew into the sea, bless him) who said that many of his fellow pilots had to be literally pushed into their planes.
  • bitch_tits_zero_nine 13 Jan 2013 14:42:20 6,654 posts
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    bit of a stretch. Germany was on it's arse economically. The social climate was surely the catalyst.
  • Khanivor 13 Jan 2013 14:54:10 40,380 posts
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    No one is saying religion cause all wars. Rather some wars would not have happened if not for religion. Or if they would have happened anyway then the manner of their waging would have been different.

    Religion is not to blame for the world's ills, far from it. But conversely it is not absolved of all guilt simply because it is not guilty for everything.
  • bitch_tits_zero_nine 13 Jan 2013 14:57:17 6,654 posts
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    I agree, but I'd broaden 'religion' to 'common ideology'.
  • RobTheBuilder 13 Jan 2013 15:11:14 6,521 posts
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    @Khanivor Exactly.

    Religion is used as a driver to push people.
  • Khanivor 13 Jan 2013 15:14:57 40,380 posts
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    Personally, my issues with religion aren't so concerned with its culpability for war but with its repression of social progress. Those American evangelical wankers who are waging a new crusade against homosexuality in Africa deserve to be dipped in hot oil. The use of religion to keep women 'in their place' in societies across the globe has held back our species for far too fucking long. And the influence of the Christian church in politics in the US and UK should not be happening.

    By all means, practice your faith. Let me practice my lack of it. Let the rules of our nations be decided by the needs of its people, not their beliefs.
  • Mola_Ram 13 Jan 2013 15:20:16 6,958 posts
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    But then you'd get into arguments over what "religion" is - whether you're talking about organized things like Catholicism, or less-heirarchical religions like Islam, collections of often tenuously-related folk beliefs collected under an "ism" for our benefit (like "Shintoism'), or things like Buddhism that are arguably not religions at all.

    Who, or what, are you blaming when you (figurative "you"; not directly taking to anyone here, really) blame "religion" as a cause of war? Is it the beliefs? The people who believe them? The higher-up religious authorities who give their blessings to those who want to plunder? Religious institutions? God?

    It's getting complicated now. But that's sort of the point.

    Edited by Mola_Ram at 15:20:59 13-01-2013
  • wayneh 13 Jan 2013 15:24:15 2,281 posts
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    bitch_tits_zero_nine wrote:
    I agree, but I'd broaden 'religion' to 'common ideology'.
    I wouldn't as common idealogy doesn't in itself lead to conflict more just disagreement.
    Religion although a great force for the common good is also a great force in dividing people and causing conflict. It seems to me Islam is going through the same stages as Christianity did a few hundred years ago but it's in a modern technological world, where people have access to lot's of information and the dark clouds of uncertainty and superstitions no longer hold the same sway.
    My biggest gripe with religion is the way that all religions assume their's is the right one and no other religion has a place in the world. Why can't they just accept that there are other religions and people have a right to choose their own beliefs?

    Act like a dumbshit and they will treat you as an equal

  • bitch_tits_zero_nine 13 Jan 2013 15:34:52 6,654 posts
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    Religions are common ideologies though, surely?

    For me, Religion simply offers convenient dividing lines, and they are dangerous because they attempt to explain bad social or economic times Incorrectly.

    But for me, the social climate is the much more important factor over the specific ideological or social distinction .

    With regards to war, I find the current trend towards nationalism across europe at the moment, particularly the East, more worrying than islam.
  • NewbieZilla 13 Jan 2013 15:38:51 239 posts
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    Khanivor wrote:
    Personally, my issues with religion aren't so concerned with its culpability for war but with its repression of social progress. Those American evangelical wankers who are waging a new crusade against homosexuality in Africa deserve to be dipped in hot oil. The use of religion to keep women 'in their place' in societies across the globe has held back our species for far too fucking long. And the influence of the Christian church in politics in the US and UK should not be happening.
    Add to that, for instance the case of abortion in Ireland. There have been discussions on that particularly since the case of the woman who died, Savita. Many religious groups, pro life groups with religious ideology are very much against legislating for the X case. Ireland should have had legislation for instance in the case of a suicidal woman. Indeed, it should go far beyond that. Instead, it is an issue ignored and exported.
  • caligari 14 Jan 2013 14:14:19 16,989 posts
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    I had a new carpet fitted in my living room today.

    All was fine until talk started to centre around religion (he'd already said that he supported Man City, so I knew something was 'up').

    Cue an awkward hour of him trying to explain why we should all be Jehovah Witnesses. I got the whole shebang - Babylon, Christmas, Easter, The Trinity.

    The guy was even kind enough to leave a 'Watchtower' pamphlet for me to peruse at my leisure.

    Oh well - at least my carpet won't be going to hell.
  • disusedgenius 14 Jan 2013 14:23:03 5,205 posts
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    Watchtower (the full magazine) is amazing though, such a weird portal into 50's US paranoia. I highly recommend people getting a hold of one if they can.
  • kalel 14 Jan 2013 14:26:00 86,329 posts
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    This sounds weirdly similar to an episode of Seinfeld.
  • disusedgenius 14 Jan 2013 14:27:24 5,205 posts
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    What doesn't? :)
  • kalel 14 Jan 2013 14:27:49 86,329 posts
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    True.
  • whatfruit 14 Jan 2013 14:55:46 1,287 posts
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    Nothing can beat Inspire for a bat shit religious magazine.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inspire_(magazine)

    http://azelin.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/inspire-magazine-9.pdf

    Edited by whatfruit at 14:57:57 14-01-2013
  • Deleted user 14 January 2013 15:25:08
    caligari wrote:
    I had a new carpet fitted in my living room today.

    All was fine until talk started to centre around religion (he'd already said that he supported Man City, so I knew something was 'up').

    Cue an awkward hour of him trying to explain why we should all be Jehovah Witnesses. I got the whole shebang - Babylon, Christmas, Easter, The Trinity.

    The guy was even kind enough to leave a 'Watchtower' pamphlet for me to peruse at my leisure.

    Oh well - at least my carpet won't be going to hell.
    Bet your curtains are though.
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